Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday June 3, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2009, 08:55 PM   #1
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default Broken OEM Oil pickup ... Pictures

I still get the occasional call from customers asking me if the OEM pickup tube failures are real so I've created an album and will be updating it over time.

Most shops I speak with treat it like the Yeti, until they see an actual failure they don't believe the issue exists. What's really interesting is the recent shift in dealerships installing my aftermarket pickup (at the customers request) instead of putting an OEM one back in. In the past dealerships would ONLY install OEM parts.

So feel free to check out the pictures and if anyone has any questions feel free to post them.

OEM OIL PICKUP FAILURE PICTURES
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 10-27-2010 at 08:39 AM.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 09-12-2009, 09:13 PM   #2
SLI99
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 134819
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Torrington CT
Vehicle:
2005 Ford F150 FX4
.........................

Default

the same exact thing occured to big AL at ICS performance in stanford, CT .....broken oil pickup
SLI99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2009, 10:51 PM   #3
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

I had a question in another forum regarding the new models, has the pickup been changed/updated with the changes in 2008 and newer?

The answer is, no they have not. ALL EJ25 motors have the same pickup from 2006-current model year. This includes Impreza, Legacy and Forester models.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 01:03 AM   #4
autofinesse
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 217663
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, On, Ca
Default

Whats the reason behind this failure? I have the 2L in my 05 and I just picked up an 06 sti pan/pickup/baffle for some added insurance for my engine but the last thing I'd want to deal with is abusted pickup. What happens when it does fail? Will it toast the motor right away?
autofinesse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 07:36 AM   #5
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Here's a clip from an older thread of mine:

I’ve gotten many requests for detailed information regarding the Oil Pickup, both OEM and the one I sell so I thought I’d post, what I know, for everyone to see. Specifically the questions seemed to be about the factory pickup and how/why it fails. Bear in mind this is information that has been presented to me and I am no scientist.

So on to the factory pickups… They are brazed assemblies (it's kind of like welding, but more like soldering with temperatures much lower than welding ~800 degrees. The braze is the gold stuff you see between the parts, see pictures here). For the braze to properly hold the metal pieces together this stuff called 'flux' is put on the areas where the braze will be applied. The flux makes sure that when the parts are heated up that the braze flows between and sticks to the metal parts properly. When operators, or machines, puts the flux on these parts to get them ready for brazing, the flux must AT LEAST cover the area that needs to be brazed together. So the application of the flux is typically quite liberal and sloppy.

This application of flux and brazing seems to be done properly because I've never seen a braze joint failure. The problem is that the flux SHOULD be cleaned from the parts after the brazing process has been completed. We'll come back to this in a second.

Now the tube, where the failures occur, is a simple thin (~.030") wall seam welded tube. A seam welded tube is basically a long skinny flat piece of metal that gets rolled into a tube and then welded where the ends meet. If you look at some of the pics in my link above you'll see a distinct line that runs the length of the tube. That's the weld. Welded tubing has its downside. While cheap, the weld can be the achilies heal if not done properly. When done properly a weld in low carbon steel will be harder, stronger and more brittle. In this situation it's a rougher surface too (when you look under a microscope, compared to the non-welded areas). Anytime there is an irregularity on the surface of a material with lumps, bumps, pits, etc., it creates a weakness.

OK so let’s get back to the braze… When not removed from certain process affected areas, specifically a hardened brittle weld, it will get into any micro pock mark or pit when it's applied and heated and a chemical reaction will occur. The flux reacts with the specific metal condition of the weld (harder and pits, etc..) and will etch into the pits making them deeper... and can also make the metal more brittle too. This is what ends up weakening the tube to the point of crack formation. And the fact that it's bolted to the bottom of an engine and exposed to vibrations doesn't help either.

Speaking to vibrations and engines modified with bolt-ons. Engine vibration is not as much a contributing factor as you might initially think for a few reasons. The rotating assemblies are fairly well balanced and harmonically dampened. The oil pickup is submerged in oil, and filled with oil. This dampens the engine vibrations tremendously at the pickup. Some assume the pickup is just swinging around from the engine vibrations, but forget that the pickup is also in oil and full of oil. Now where high frequency vibrations do come from is the oil pump. Typically called ‘high frequency pressure pulsation’, these lower amplitude pulses can have a more pronounced affect because of harmonics that can build in the pickup assembly, possibly where a critical frequency may be being reached at certain RPMs (speed of the oil pump).

So essentially, based on what I have experienced and learned, the OEM oil pickup failures are initiated from a chemical reaction from braze flux on the weld seam and these weakened areas are taken advantage of by oil pump induced high frequency vibrations.

And another regarding catching the pressure drop with a guage:

P-iff, even if you had a guage it might not necessarily let you catch it in time. Failure is often rapid, because even when a crack starts to develop it will still suck oil to the pump. The pressure guage shows pressure after the pump and is not an ideal indicator of what's going on before the pump. There are some instances (I'm speaking from second hand information from other threads on here and other forums) where a pressure guage showed a decrease in pressure before complete failure. Personally at the flow rates this lubrication system is suposed to operate at, if there was a failure you'd have to be watching the guage as it happens and shut it down quickly! I don't watch my guages constantly, especially when flogging it Here's a pic of the lubrication system specs so you can see what I mean as far as how much oil (quarts per minute) should be flowing at higher RPMs.

KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 04:14 PM   #6
autofinesse
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 217663
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, On, Ca
Default

Thanks for the info, very helpful. So was it just the 06 pickups that suffered from this? Do the failures typically occur in nodded cars or has this also happened to factory 06+?
autofinesse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2009, 04:32 PM   #7
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

From what I've been able to find, broken pickups in Subarus has been a problem since 1996, BUT it's more common in the EJ20 and EJ25 motors, from 2002 on. They made an update to the pickup/pan in 2006-current, and it actually has a worse failure rate than previous versions.

Modifications have nothing to do with the probablility of failure. There have even been a few rare cases (06 and 07) where the OEM one broke, was covered and replaced under warranty, and then the replaced unit broke. These all required a new shortblock and were in stock cars. This is also very rare, but if you search on here, you'll find all the info on it.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 03:48 PM   #8
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Added a couple more pictures.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 04:01 PM   #9
Mechie3
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 120152
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Indy
Default

Interesting to see the oil specs of 14psi idle and 43psi @ 5krpms. Some people on here swear you're an idiot if you don't have 20psi @ idle and 80psi everyother time.
Mechie3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2009, 08:16 PM   #10
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
Interesting to see the oil specs of 14psi idle and 43psi @ 5krpms. Some people on here swear you're an idiot if you don't have 20psi @ idle and 80psi everyother time.
Your are correct. I keep that image handy just for that reason.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 10:51 PM   #11
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Added even more pics.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 11:37 PM   #12
falcon_view
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 225651
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Savannah
Vehicle:
04 Forester 2.5 XT
Silver

Default

Found this to save the engine if the tube cracks or breaks

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SU...5&autoview=sku

To over ride the switch to start, tap in the brake load side to the out bound side of the switch to get power when pressing the brake peddle,you need to add a diode to brake over ride wire so the brake lights don't stay on when the pressure switch closes. When oil pressure comes up release the brake peddle. You can kill the ignition and/or fuel pump with this switch. The kit comes with complete instructions so they may have a better idea on how to start the engine. I am calling tomorrow to find out more. In any case I am getting one.

Also it is a good anti theft device depending on how you wire it.

Last edited by falcon_view; 10-23-2009 at 12:31 AM. Reason: added more
falcon_view is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 08:54 AM   #13
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

That's a pretty neat idea for those who don't who don't want to pay attention to idiot lights or for those of us that have a Subaru where the idiot light comes on at only 2psi.

The only downside I can see here, relating to busted oil pickups, is if you have a crack you may still maintain enough pressure to not trigger the sensor, but that low pressure at high RPM/load can be problematic.

The failures I've seen with high RPM pressure issues were all caught because of an observed lower oil pressure at high RPM, not at idle. If you're lucky enough to develop a crack (vs. the more common immediate failure) a guage is your best bet.

I think this sensor is a neat idea and a definite step up from the Suby OEM 2psi activation pressure, and obviously you can't be oblivious to your engine shutting off.

KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 09:24 AM   #14
falcon_view
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 225651
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Savannah
Vehicle:
04 Forester 2.5 XT
Silver

Default

I wonder what the oil psi is when turning the engine with the starter and if it would get over 7 psi to close the oil pressure safety switch?

Just called summit racing and this switch is to be put into an oil passage point in the engine. The treads are not metric on the switch but are on the Subaru engines. So an adapter will be needed.

To see the instructions click on the the link here or in my first post then in the upper right you will find instruction sheet in a PDF and refer to diagram 3.

I have read in a thread that the crank position sensor will cut off ignition and fuel pump. If this is correct what is the voltage to the crank sensor? This would be a good place to tap into to kill the engine because the oil sending unit and crank sensor are very close to each other. What is the down side in this? Would you get a CODE if cranking the engine by not pressing a installed by pass switch and if so would the CODE clear once the by pass switch is activated?

Last edited by falcon_view; 10-23-2009 at 10:36 AM. Reason: added more.
falcon_view is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 10:29 AM   #15
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Oil pressure is typically below 2psi when cranking, but can build a bit more if you keep cranking and cranking and cranking. You can really see this when you start your car after an oil change and the light stays on for a second or 2 after the car starts.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 10:37 AM   #16
falcon_view
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 225651
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Savannah
Vehicle:
04 Forester 2.5 XT
Silver

Default

^^^added more need some help here in post 14.

Last edited by falcon_view; 10-23-2009 at 10:55 AM.
falcon_view is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 10:47 AM   #17
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
Interesting to see the oil specs of 14psi idle and 43psi @ 5krpms. Some people on here swear you're an idiot if you don't have 20psi @ idle and 80psi everyother time.
That's because 20psi at idle and 85 psi above ~3k RPM is normal for our cars. The above posted specs are the absolute bare minimum, if your oil pressure is below that then something is DEFINITELY wrong. Similarly, if your oil pressure is anywhere close to that number, something is probably wrong.
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 01:14 PM   #18
wrxwhat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87653
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
500 hp STI / 1100hp
Supra T / Stock G35

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
That's because 20psi at idle and 85 psi above ~3k RPM is normal for our cars. The above posted specs are the absolute bare minimum, if your oil pressure is below that then something is DEFINITELY wrong. Similarly, if your oil pressure is anywhere close to that number, something is probably wrong.
Oh really? My car sees around 14psi at idle and a maximum of 58psi at 7000rpm
wrxwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 01:18 PM   #19
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxwhat View Post
Oh really? My car sees around 14psi at idle and a maximum of 58psi at 7000rpm
Is your car stock? Or does it at least have the stock oiling system?
The oil pressure bypass opens at 85 psi, and it will hit the bypass pressure on a bone stock car all the way to redline (or at least close). If you're not hitting 85 psi from ~3k RPM and on, your oil passages are out flowing your oil pump. If you set it up this way by design (cross drilled crank, huge bearing clearances, etc), then fine, but if your car is stock, then something is probably wrong (failing oil pump, bypass stuck open, large oil leak (maybe a torn seal in the block), or your oil is too thin), because everybody else with a stock oiling system hits their bypass pressure to redline.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 10-23-2009 at 01:28 PM.
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 01:39 PM   #20
newtothescene
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 222368
Join Date: Sep 2009
Chapter/Region: VIC
Location: Tri-Cities
Vehicle:
2006 Cone Dodger
CGM

Default

Ok, so how much in labour would it cost to replace the OEM pickup with an aftermarket one? Thinking of doing this before anything happens.
newtothescene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 02:53 PM   #21
wrxwhat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87653
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
500 hp STI / 1100hp
Supra T / Stock G35

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Is your car stock? Or does it at least have the stock oiling system?
The oil pressure bypass opens at 85 psi, and it will hit the bypass pressure on a bone stock car all the way to redline (or at least close). If you're not hitting 85 psi from ~3k RPM and on, your oil passages are out flowing your oil pump. If you set it up this way by design (cross drilled crank, huge bearing clearances, etc), then fine, but if your car is stock, then something is probably wrong (failing oil pump, bypass stuck open, large oil leak (maybe a torn seal in the block), or your oil is too thin), because everybody else with a stock oiling system hits their bypass pressure to redline.
I have a stock oiling system. With "average" bearing clearances, not TIGHT, but not incredibly loose. My engine has been together for a long time though, so I don't think the "low" oil pressure is really doing any harm.
wrxwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 02:59 PM   #22
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxwhat View Post
I have a stock oiling system. With "average" bearing clearances, not TIGHT, but not incredibly loose. My engine has been together for a long time though, so I don't think the "low" oil pressure is really doing any harm.
Maybe you have your oil pressure sensor near the end of the oil path?
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 03:08 PM   #23
IMPORTIMAGE
NASIOC Storefront Vendor
 
Member#: 79304
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
CALL 941-257-9618
www.ImportImageRacing.com

Default

im glad we just got a bunch in, i've been hearing alot of failures as well
IMPORTIMAGE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 03:12 PM   #24
richy_21
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 58670
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Behind the scope
Vehicle:
2005 got muuuuu?

Default

bump for the oil deathhhh ps chris answer your phone i want to do work on the pan
richy_21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 05:03 PM   #25
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richy_21 View Post
bump for the oil deathhhh ps chris answer your phone i want to do work on the pan
You leave a message? I was probably on the other line, phone has been ringing off the hook lately!
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Broken OEM Oil Pickups... Pictures KillerBMotorsport Built Motor Discussion 35 04-25-2011 08:33 AM
OEM Oil Pickup Failures - Explained KillerBMotorsport Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 24 05-27-2009 11:19 PM
Ultimate Oil Pickup Groupbuy - Say NO to Oil Pickup Failure! KillerBMotorsport Vendor 'Group Buy' Classifieds 31 04-29-2009 02:57 PM
2.5 liter oil pan on 2.0 liter, oil pickup cabe Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 7 09-07-2008 11:31 AM
CA: Perrin header and Sti oil pan w/oil pickup 1WRX2NV Engine/Power/Exhaust 2 02-18-2008 09:16 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.