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Old 05-09-2002, 12:26 AM   #1
RawCode
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Default Interesting post by Cobb

The single best power upgrade is the Unichip, hands down as it can optimize fuel, timing, as well as boost. I am always a fan of new tires, but we are talking about A full exhaust alone does not make more than a few h.p. as we have seen on our dyno. In fact nearly every bolt-on we have seen makes little to no power without an ECU upgrade. The stock computer has a habit of working it's way around mods. As stated here an ECU re-set has little to no effect on actually adding power. It may help a few mods run better, but does not make power. We have tried this on our dyno and proven this point.

Manual boost controllers are not a great way to make power. We do not offer a boost controller except the one that is packaged with the Unichip Piggy-back ECU as Running a “set” boost all the way to red-line (like the manual boost controllers, and the "Boost Monkey" appears to) reduces the lifespan of the turbo, and 99% of the time makes more heat than h.p. We do run slightly more boost (around .5-1.5 PSI in parts of the RPM range) in our Club Spec System for example, but it follows a boost curve as the stock car does. This is mainly for reliability as well as there is not much more, if any, power to be made by pushing high boost levels all the way to redline. This is one of the main reasons we use the Unichip. It has advanced controls for boost, as well as being able to alter fuel and timing. The "Boost Monkey" looks like a step ahead of a manual boost controller, but is still far from optimal unless it can run a boost curve. It seems odd that it needs other boost controlling equipment to function properly.

Higher EGTs are normal to partial throttle conditions. Many well tuned factory cars (Porsche for example) do run higher EGTs under partial throttle conditions. The motor is not under full load, therefore EGTs higher than WOT are perfectly safe. The same well tuned factory cars also run lean A/F ratios at partial throttle. Again, the motor is not at full load so this is very safe, and actually beneficial to power, response, and fuel economy as it is more efficient.

The cat-less up-pipes we have seen on the dyno (there we go with that thing again ) is good for top end power on a car with the stock turbo. We did not see a reduction in spool-up times. It is also a pain to install. It is a fairly inexpensive item, but the install is more usually expensive than the piece in money, or the time spent.

Gauges are not a necessity if the car is tuned by an experienced tuner with the proper equipment. If you are tuning the car yourself they can help you get closer than you can with no information. I have been in many cars with many gauges, and the only time I have looked at them is when something went drastically wrong. I hope people do not drive down the road with their eyes on the gauges all of the time. That is as bad as the people concentrating in their cell phone conversation.

Josh
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:12 AM   #2
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I guess the Unichip is god's gift to the WRX community.
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:35 AM   #3
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All other upgrades are useless...and also, be sure and bring your car to Cobb so that they can personally take your money.

But still good information...

Kris
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:49 AM   #4
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Here, let me do alittle bit of editing for Mr. Cobb @ Cobb Tuning -

Ahem,

Hey *****, This is Cobb eningeering and I want yo ****3n m0n3y. That's right, bling bling. My Un!chip, that means one chip fo u ****tards, is teh b3st3$t on d@ mark3t. We've proven that no other mods can do **** for a WRX. So bring it, bitches.

Last edited by WRXnFX; 05-09-2002 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:52 AM   #5
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In a way it is sorta true. When Sport compact car dynoed an exhaust and intake on their 98 or 99 ( I forget) RS, they produced small gains. Then they added a AFC and got around 15 Hp with those same mods.

It is crazy how adaptive the stock ECU is and how much authority it has over the engine.

RawCode
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Hey *****, This is Cobb eningeering and I want yo ****3n m0n3y. That's right, bling bling. My Un!chip, that means one chip fo u ****tards, is teh b3st3$t on d@ mark3t. We've proven that no other mods can do **** for a WRX. So bring it, bitches
hahahaha

Last edited by WRXnFX; 05-09-2002 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:59 AM   #7
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OK, if we are gonna "mag" race, then let me get in on it.

SCC dyno's a Eclipse GST stock and with an UP, DP, and Catback. They achieved a 35 WHP gain from it. And you're going to tell me that the Subaru's more restrictive exhaust (2.0", 3 cats) is actually one of the best on the market for it and there is no need to change it? I find that hard to believe.

Don't forget Rawcode, you are comparing an N/A vehicle to a FI vehicle, they will react differently to the same mods. I don't know of very many FI vehicle's that don't make massive gains from a full exhaust.

Scott
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Old 05-09-2002, 02:49 AM   #8
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But the underlying thought is the same. You cannot get the most out of mods unless you can tune it to some extent.

With all the mods you have listed you get 35 whp. But if it was properly tuned I bet you could get around 45-50...

RawCode
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Old 05-09-2002, 06:40 AM   #9
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That's why you get an AFC and EBC and timming controller and do it all your self. Beats having someone else doing it for you thourgh the unichip. Hell I do all my tunning trhough an afc and a logger to monitor timming and nock. Works like a charm I don't see why a WRX would need to have a unichip to make power. It's cheaper then a unichp and beats having to take it out and getting reporgammed evertime someomne decideds to change a mod. Plus I constantly retune my car depending wether it's cold or warm out. I think it's really worth it when you can tune your own car with out depending on someone else. Just me thogh.
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Old 05-09-2002, 07:11 AM   #10
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True, but I don't think many people would like to tweak their car all the time. The Unichip seems to be a set it and forget it system which is great for people that don't wish to tune all the time.

I myself would perfer a PEMS if and when I do go turbo, it will be done right...

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Old 05-09-2002, 08:04 AM   #11
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Scott, I think you need to watch the derogatory comments.

Quote:
Manual boost controllers are not a great way to make power. We do not offer a boost controller except the one that is packaged with the Unichip Piggy-back ECU as Running a “set” boost all the way to red-line (like the manual boost controllers, and the "Boost Monkey" appears to) reduces the lifespan of the turbo, and 99% of the time makes more heat than h.p. We do run slightly more boost (around .5-1.5 PSI in parts of the RPM range) in our Club Spec System for example, but it follows a boost curve as the stock car does.
What the hell does that mean? Like a Unichip doesn't reduce the life span of the turbo. I'm sure that any increase over stock is going to reduce the lifespan of the turbo.

The Unichip is a great way to "set it and forget it," but I would rather go the route that Nano suggests. If you are going to be active about performance then the Unichip isn't the way to go.

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Old 05-09-2002, 01:07 PM   #12
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Old 05-09-2002, 02:23 PM   #13
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Winslow,

I must disagree. It was mearly a joke. If anyone takes it seriously, well........ ummmm...... I won't go into that.

It's obvious Cobb is talking BS. I'd like to see his dyno numbers from the mods he put on the vehicles compared to a unichip, not some lame "My **** is better then everything on the market" post.

Scott
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Old 05-09-2002, 06:47 PM   #14
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Joke or not, I'm sure you could have made your point without using that comment.

Cobb never said in that post that their products are better than anyone else's. They were merely stating that THEY think the Unichip is the best power upgrade because of how it affects the car. Plus, the person who posted that statement never prefaced the thread with the question or comment that brought Cobb to say those things.

If you don't want to buy Cobb's Unichip there are others such as TurboXS and Vishnu.

Winslow
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Old 05-09-2002, 07:07 PM   #15
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I'm not going to argue with a mod about this subject. It's pointless.

However, read the post, as I belive this is a direct quote, and you'll see that they state several times that their dyno has proven that the other mods for a car will not gain much power without the use of a chip. Yet, they do not back up their findings with their dyno sheets.

I am willing to bet that they put 1 mod on the car at a time and dyno'd, then took it off. This would show very meaningless gains for some of the mods, like the up-pipe with no other exhaust mods.

Scott
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Old 05-09-2002, 07:30 PM   #16
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Arguing with moderators isn't pointless it's just your opinion. I hope we can still kiss without you biting my head off.

Who knows where Mike got that quote? Maybe there was dyno graphs? It is proven that certain mods such as an intake need the Unichip or some other device to change the A/F ratios and that goes for other mods too such as exhaust. His statement about the ECU being very adaptive is true and I wouldn't be amazed if it did relearn the stock settings and bypass the mods. That is true about bolting on one peice at a time. They might have but people usually ask for performance gains of individual parts and never think that it might help with other mods. For instance, when I did my exhaust I also did the uppipe because of the performance benefits of doing both. It makes more sense like they said that to do the uppipe alone is a time consuming mod and expensive if not done yourself.

This is a nice change to the typical AKIC posts.

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Old 05-09-2002, 08:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawCode
In a way it is sorta true. When Sport compact car dynoed an exhaust and intake on their 98 or 99 ( I forget) RS, they produced small gains. Then they added a AFC and got around 15 Hp with those same mods.

It is crazy how adaptive the stock ECU is and how much authority it has over the engine.

RawCode
Actually, I gained around 20 peak wheel hp with just the intake. The MAF misreadings leaned out the a/f ratio enough to see those big gains. However, above 5500rpm, the a/f ratios got way too lean and we actually lost power/torque at high rpm. With the SAFC, I dialed in more fuel up top to keep the torque curve alive there. But as far as peak numbers go, the intake alone made the same number as the intake/SAFC combo.

Cheers
shiv
SCC Project 2.5RS author

EDIT: From the testing I've seen and conducted, up-pipes produce measureable gains from as early as 2500rpm. Spool-up is reduced as well judging by the before and after TEC-II datalogs I have to go off. Not to mention all the people who have had similar findings. But just as important than the power gains, EGT drop, imiproved turbo response and exhaust back-pressure reduction is the removal of a very real failure mode. A few times a week, I hear from customers (and dealerships) who have inspected their stock pre-cats only to find obvious signs of deterioration and different degrees of clogging. The fact that, at one time not too long ago at least, the US demand for replacement pre-cats were so great that SOA was experiencing a several week back-order from Japan. So... I think it's safe to say that, as far as enthusiasts are concerned, the pre-cat is an unwanted component in the exhaust system. If there were only one mod that someone could do, I'd recommend it over anything else, Unichip included. Just my 2c...

Last edited by Vishnu Performance; 05-09-2002 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 05-09-2002, 08:30 PM   #18
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SPEAK AND YOU WILL BE HEARD!!!

I guess Shiv is back from Africa. He doesn't do a search for "Vishnu" or anything. I'll be giving them a call for all you Stage Zero people who want to upgrade to the Stage One.

Wow, 20HP from just the intake.

Winslow
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Old 05-09-2002, 09:29 PM   #19
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From what I am getting on this subject is that every tuner does it differently and its up to the individual to make the decision on how much or how far they want to be able to tinker with their vehicle.
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:42 AM   #20
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*taps Winslow on the shoulder*

Ahem, now you can say sorry. j/k

I agree, it's nice to actually get some tech in this forum. m@d pr0P$ y0! 6!v3 d@ $tunn@ @ tr0pyh y0! hehehehe.

Scott
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Old 05-10-2002, 04:58 AM   #21
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So I am assuming that with an NA 2.5 RS with small mods could actually have a rather large gain with the addition on small fuel management?

I rememeber when you first turboed the RS back in the day just using J & S and a fuel computer. Along with various turbo controllers and such. You seemed soooo happy when the clutch started to slip!

RawCode
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Old 05-10-2002, 05:33 PM   #22
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Well since I am mentioned I guess I will put up some helpful information.

00CamaroSS: The Unichip is actually the fruit of the gods. We actually sell many bolt-on parts, so I guess I am saying not to buy our stuff when I say most bolt-ons do very little. The thread on our board that I was responding to was titled “What is the single best upgrade for the WRX” and was referring to power mods. It is a fact that many of the parts you bolt-on make very little difference. Even our “almighty” Club Spec Package adds very little power when not tuned properly with some form of ECU upgrade. The turbo spools up quicker, but peak power increased very little. We are not saying “mine is better”, just that bolt-ons will give you little power themselves.

More people sell the Unichip other than ourselves. Look here http://www.theracersgroup.com/dealerlisting.html at the Racer’s Group’s website for the nationwide list of Unichip dealers/installers. Other upgrades are not useless, just not as useful as programming your car for them. This goes for any parts not just our own or everybody else’s. As Shiv pointed out some of the intakes on the market do make power, but by leaning out the A/F ratio. I consider them more of an ECU upgrade, as they do not flow that much better than the stock airbox. We have also seen that many cause somewhat unpredictable lean/rich spikes. A properly designed intake will have a consistent smooth flow, to avoid causing miss-readings on the MAF. A basic tube with a filter on the end has very little design in it.

We are actually about the farthest from “Bling Bling” out of many of the Subaru vendors. You can also speak to other tuners such as Vishnu Performance and TurboXS for parts that are geared toward performance. Actually, we have almost no looks products.

The stock WRX exhaust can be improved upon greatly. It just depends on your goals with the car.

As a side note on that same thread there is a dyno chart posted of a Unichip alone. It exceeds by a good margin any torque and h.p. curve I have seen from bolt-ons alone. I have also attached it to this thread. Keep in mind that percentage gains are what a dyno is truly useful for. Our dyno does not read as high as most.

Nano: You have a great plan and have made an investment in diagnostic equipment to do your tuning. The only limiting factors are people’s knowledge level, and their willingness to tune their 25K investment (more if you count the parts they have). Most of our customers do not have the benefit of many years of tuning behind them or the investment you have made in diagnostic equipment.

WRXnFX1974: It is true that pushing more boost does decrease the lifespan of the turbo. However, running a “set” higher boost (as most EBCs and MBCs do) all the way to red-line reduces the lifespan of the turbo even further, than tapering the boost electronically. Again, this is mainly for reliability as well as there is not much more, if any, power to be made by pushing high boost levels all the way to redline. A car with an MBC boost controller will taper, but more because the turbo is out of its efficiency range. Intake air temps rise which is not a good sign. This is one of the main reasons we use the Unichip. We run the least amount of boost necessary to make the power. We place the least amount of stress on the car in order to keep the engine system intact. Since there are variations from car to car boost levels differ to get the same results.

RawCode: The RS can benefit from fuel and timing mods, but not to the extent of the WRX. On my 01 RS with our Stage 2 Power Package (not a plug for you conspirators out there ) I gained 4 peak h.p. and 5 ft/lbs of peak torque. Power dropped off less after the peak by changing the A/F ratio, and the low-mid range is more responsive due to timing changes. The stock RS ECU is pretty close to optimal for most situations, so the gains are not as significant as the WRX. The ECU also works a little differently.

I also wanted to point out and correct my lack of editing skills in the first paragraph of the quote.

“The single best power upgrade is the Unichip, hands down as it can optimize fuel, timing, as well as boost. I am always a fan of new tires, but we are talking about A full exhaust alone does not make more than a few h.p. as we have seen on our dyno. In fact nearly every bolt-on we have seen makes little to no power without an ECU upgrade. The stock computer has a habit of working it's way around mods. As stated here an ECU re-set has little to no effect on actually adding power. It may help a few mods run better, but does not make power. We have tried this on our dyno and proven this point.”

What I meant to say:

“The single best power upgrade is the Unichip, hands down as it can optimize fuel, timing, as well as boost. I am always a fan of new tires, but we are talking about power mods in this post. A full exhaust alone does not make more than a few h.p. as we have seen on our dyno. In fact nearly every bolt-on we have seen makes little to no power without an ECU upgrade. The stock computer has a habit of working it's way around mods. As stated here an ECU re-set has little to no effect on actually adding power. It may help a few mods run better, but does not make power. We have tried this on our dyno and proven this point.”

Cheers,
Josh
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Old 05-10-2002, 05:52 PM   #23
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Like Winslow said. SPEAK AND YOU WILL BE HEARD!!!!


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Old 05-10-2002, 06:18 PM   #24
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Cobb,

Thank you for coming in and clearing up your post. I was in no way trying to make any dirogitory comments about your shop or your products. I was just mearly pointing out, at what I thought, was a misjudgement in advertising.

The "Bling Bling" paragraph was a joke, not meant to be taken seriously by anyone. (Gee, can you tell by the way I wrote it? )

Laterz,

Mullet Boy
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Old 05-10-2002, 07:42 PM   #25
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Wow our forum has class now! Our first REAL technical post! yay!

Thanks for the reply Josh. I have been wondering about such management on a NA Car. I have been debating as to do some NA mods like Heads and cams before going turbo simply to increase the efficiency of the engine. ah well...

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