Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday November 23, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports > Autocross

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-18-2009, 11:53 PM   #1
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default Quick Question on Auto X Setup!

I drive a 2002 WRX WAGON which is my daily driver. It sees about 2-4 autocross events each month also and is currently setup up with a 22mm RSB and new wheels and tires which are the objects in question.

I kinda made somewhat of an impulse buy when I bought my wheels and now realized i wish i bought bigger ones. My tires also suck and are making me understeer horrendously which is holding me back from being competitive.

17x7 Raze R74's wrapped in 215/45/17 Nexxen N3000.
I know the epitomy of ****.
My question is to be competitive in ESP should i stick around with my wheels and upgrade to 225 Dunlop Star Specs or would it be more worthwhile to trade for 17x8's and 235s/245s. If im not mistaken I believe Id have to roll the fenders to fit 245s maybe even for 235s also.

What are your opinions/ advice?
Pic for reference

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 12:04 AM   #2
leecea
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 37359
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

Going from a RSB and street tires to being competitive in ESP is quite a journey.

What about STX?

If you are aiming for ESP, you'll need a second set of wheels to run R compound tires eventually, so might as well get the 17x8s I guess. I run ESP with just sways, shocks, and R tires. It's kinda fun but there is not much competition in my region and when a real ESP car turns up, I get completely smoked.

Last edited by leecea; 10-19-2009 at 12:14 AM.
leecea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 12:34 AM   #3
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

My car is already in ESP because I have a Turbo-back.
Honestly I dont want to be the best or anything, I just want a street tire set-up that will unleash the maximum potential of my current set up. I cant tweak anything because my tires are a constant weak factor.
I just want to know if 235/245s will make a huge difference in handling; will it be worth it to go through the hassle of selling/trading my wheels and tires in order to get a wider setup?

????
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 01:09 AM   #4
waktasz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 86356
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

Getting a good street tire on your existing wheels will make a big difference over the crappy tires you have now. Something like a Dunlop z1 Star Spec, Kumho XS or Bridestone re-11 (that's the newest one I think).
waktasz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 01:34 AM   #5
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

dunlop star specs come highly reccomended to me, two of my sti frinds run those with success.
I was also looking at the Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport for 125 a tire, pretty much same as star specs. Anyone ever run these, I need some input on treadware. If im going to be shelling out almost 500 for tires having them last would be nice.

So Im pretty much looking a tire which sticks well but also can last around 30K? Is that too much to ask? haha
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 01:39 AM   #6
waktasz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 86356
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

If you are looking to go cheap I'd look at either Falken rt-615 or Hankook rs-2 (or rs-3 if they don't make the rs-2 anymore). Maybe even Kumho MX although I hated mine. 30k is a lot of miles if you are autocrossing a lot. Actually, it's a lot of miles on a super sticky summer tire even if you are just street driving it.
waktasz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 01:47 AM   #7
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

I mean 30K is a wish and im the type that will run a tire down to the cords before I say Im finished. Ill look into the others that you recommended also. Thanks.
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 01:57 AM   #8
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Those Hankooks are looking really good. However, Does anyone know if there will be a big difference in performance between these and star specs?
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 02:18 AM   #9
Back Road Runner
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 60082
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2004 Forester STI
Silver

Default

The only thing limiting the car's potential is the driver.

If you can't be at 100% car capability the way it is now, then you don't get to blame the car just yet. Blame the car for what you're fighting, but don't blame it for not driving. That's your job afterall.

The only thing that you will lack from your current setup is a fast run time. However, tires and setup aren't limiting the car. You should still be able to bring it to the ragged edge on complete junk. It's just that the ragged edge will be a little slow going around the course.

Tires will give you a higher grip level. It will understeer just the same, but you'll just be going a little faster doing it. Car suspension setup fixes understeer and neutrals out the car. Driver inputs fix understeer and neutral out the car. You should be able to effectively drive the car as is and adapt your driving techniques to counter the car's pre-tuned behavior. You'll eventually want to mod the car so you fight it less and less, but you should know how to manipulate the car to drive as it needs to without the modifications.

The end goal is to build a car that you don't have to fight against to make it go around a track. That does take proper setup. Some of the setup choice will depend upon how you drive too. Basically look at what you're fighting, and then modify the car to tune that out. I'll give you a hint, it's not tires that are causing the understeer. Tires just cause lower grip limits. The understeer is elsewhere in the design.
Back Road Runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 04:46 AM   #10
UFOpilot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 189525
Join Date: Sep 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2007 WRX Wagon
Invisible Plain

Default

Your alignment looks stock, like the rest of the suspension. If you are still on factory spec alignments that will be a huge part of your problem. I ran 215's all season, and drove circles around many people with 245's. If the suspension isn't sorted out as a system, don't expect it to perform because it can't. I do believe that tire compound makes a bigger difference than tire width, unless you upgrade both. I'll take 215 r-comps over 245 ST's any day, but that's just me.

Dig the wagon, keep it up.
UFOpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 08:28 AM   #11
KC
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 442
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: SE Mass/RI
Vehicle:
2013 Crosstrek XV
00 Honda S2000

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfive09 View Post
My car is already in ESP because I have a Turbo-back.
Do you still have the stock up-pipe? STX rules only require one catalytic converter. If you do, then you're in STX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfive09 View Post
I was also looking at the Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport for 125 a tire, pretty much same as star specs.
No they aren't. The Dunlops are much better than the 760s. The Dunlops are close to to the Bridgestone RE11, not the 760s.
Quote:
So Im pretty much looking a tire which sticks well but also can last around 30K? Is that too much to ask? haha
Yes. It is. Grip comes at the cost of wear. Choose your poison. The Dunlops in the very least are quite cheap relative to their competition of the Yokohama AD08s and the Bridgesone RE11s and offer close to the same amount of grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
If you are looking to go cheap I'd look at either Falken rt-615 or Hankook rs-2 (or rs-3 if they don't make the rs-2 anymore). Maybe even Kumho MX although I hated mine. 30k is a lot of miles if you are autocrossing a lot. Actually, it's a lot of miles on a super sticky summer tire even if you are just street driving it.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfive09 View Post
Those Hankooks are looking really good. However, Does anyone know if there will be a big difference in performance between these and star specs?
Big? Only someone that has done many autoxes in their life will feel it (ie: able to get 100% performance out of both tires to get down to where you find or lose that 1/10th of a second).

BTW... Bugeye wagon (silver even) FTW.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 10-19-2009 at 08:36 AM.
KC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 12:10 PM   #12
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Thanks for all the info and kind words guys,
I may have forgot to mention but im a noob with this wagon being my first vehicle.
The car is holding up great at 94K besides the fact my last oil change was a fail (Mobil One burned off about half a quart in around 1K miles!). no more mobil one for me.
Current motor mods are catless UP and DP and SRS catback exhaust with a mild road tune.

You guys are all right about me being the weak point, yesterday was maybe my 5-6 autocross. I did do 2 seconds better than one WRX but 1 second and change behind another one. Im probably going to buy some Hankook RS-2's If i can find some in my desired size 225/45/17. Tirerack does not have em..
I suppose i will also fix my alignment, I have wayyy to much positive camber. Proof being the top half of my sidewall was marked white from the tarmac!
Then if that does not help, find another source of understeer.
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 02:25 PM   #13
leecea
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 37359
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

Quote:
Proof being the top half of my sidewall was marked white from the tarmac!
What tire pressures were you running? On street tires I ran something like 45 front 42 rear hot. Not saying that's the best but just pointing out that autox pressures are often radically different from street or door pillar pressures.

BTW, get a big front sway bar too. I've had luck with used bars - there's not much that can go wrong with a bar unless it is obviously damaged or really rusty.
leecea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 03:15 PM   #14
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

i was running 38psi not sure if thats good or not.
it was around 65 degrees out.
In regards to sway bars, the progress rear bar i have is used and is doing just fine. Im running stock endlinks back there which i hope to change out very soon.
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 06:13 PM   #15
leecea
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 37359
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfive09 View Post
i was running 38psi not sure if thats good or not.
it was around 65 degrees out.
In regards to sway bars, the progress rear bar i have is used and is doing just fine. Im running stock endlinks back there which i hope to change out very soon.
If your sidewall is being scuffed up, that's not good. 38psi may not be enough. One method is to apply chalk lines to the tires and find the minimum air pressure where the chalk is rubbed off the treaded area but not rubbed off the sidewall. It's a good ballpark at least.

Sorry, I thought your original post said you only have a rear sway bar. Autoxing these cars it is usually considered a big advantage to have the biggest FRONT sway bar available too. If you already have a big FSB, my mistake.
leecea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 06:22 PM   #16
UFOpilot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 189525
Join Date: Sep 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2007 WRX Wagon
Invisible Plain

Default

It is my opinion that alignment should be used to "tune" and tire pressure should be used to "fine tune". With that said, if you use tire pressure to "tune" all you will do is mask and band-aid the problem at best. It is a compromise that many people make. I don't understand why anyone would state to tune with pressure when your suspension is in serious need of tuning, before you should worry about fine tuning.

Not knocking other viewpoints, but this is not a "crazy" belief system I invented, it is fairly well-known in racing and has been for years.
UFOpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 06:30 PM   #17
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

The alignment definitely is not ideal at the moment. If im not mistaken I believe i need more negative camber. I have never really worried much about tire pressure i just try to keep it higher than 36psi. Maybe Ill pay more attention from here on out.
Ill also be on the lookout for a chunky front bar.
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 06:42 PM   #18
leecea
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 37359
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2003 WRX

Default

You are right that high tire pressures and big FSBs are a crutch to try and get a bit more performance from too little negative camber and tires that are not well suited to autox.

I guess I'm used to living in a world where camber maxes out at <-1.5 degrees
leecea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 07:13 PM   #19
UFOpilot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 189525
Join Date: Sep 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2007 WRX Wagon
Invisible Plain

Default

Ah, the world of the class limited mods. I forget about that a lot, I'm building my car for track duty and stopped into FP along the way. I couldn't stand driving my car with the stock components, but I came from a history with performance oriented vehicles. The year and a half I spent in my stock Subaru was nice because I really learned all of the weaknesses, but it was also torture because I wanted the car to be so much more. My limitation at that time was $$$$'s.

When one is limited by classing restrictions anything that helps, helps. No doubt about that.
UFOpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2009, 11:35 PM   #20
Back Road Runner
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 60082
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2004 Forester STI
Silver

Default

Haha, I hear ya. I'm in XP now from random parts that throw me there in a car that's nowhere competent in even a much lesser class. I'm in M4 in rally-x too. It's funny, but it's all just play for me. Legal auto mischief is good auto mischief Winning is just a bonus.

fastfive09, you have to decide what your goals are for this. Do you want to win trophies? Do you just want to have fun and learn car control? How much do you want to do with the car and how many constraints are you willing to stick to if it means you'll be more competitive?
Back Road Runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 12:52 PM   #21
UFOpilot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 189525
Join Date: Sep 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland Oregon
Vehicle:
2007 WRX Wagon
Invisible Plain

Default

I tear it up in FP, of course I am the only person in the region in FP.
UFOpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 01:20 PM   #22
Boxologist
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 21118
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Default

again, re-iterating that the nut behind the wheel is the limiting factor, and thankfully the OP understands that. If your going to spend money on improving the wheel/tyre setup, u should spend the money correctly. Don't go halfway. When ur ready spend for another set on wheels, if u wish to stay in ESP 8"+ and some R comps to with them. the toyo/nitto/advan level is definitely acceptable as these will be your first R comps.

that being said, before that, seat time. drive the piss out of the nexens. if there are any fast AWD or other hot shoes in you are, ask them if they would lie to co-drive with u for an event so u can see what the real potential of ur current setup is and how far off ur ability is at the moment. Learn from them.

and as others have said, correct the smaller parts of your setup. sway bars and alignment go a long ways.
Boxologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 01:53 PM   #23
SubySal
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 43011
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza RS
PacificaBlue/BlackTarmacs

Default

Remember too that good suspensions are generally designed around tire grip and road surfaces. Few cars do well with R-comps and stock suspensions. Corvettes, S2000's ...they are few and far between. Subaru's gain positive camber during compression due to our strut type suspension. They also gain positive camber when the wheels are turned. Couple that with stickier tire and though the car will stick better without the supporting suspension upgrades the further loss of negative camber by further compressing the suspension can make the car even harder to drive. This is one of the main reasons Subaru's are not very competitive in stock classes. At the same time it makes them very competitive in ST or SP classes because performance suspensions fix that problem and Subaru's are blessed with a very stiff chassis.

My recommendation is swaybars and front camberplates and get a good alignment. Rear camber is non-adjustable, but some camber bolts will add some negative camber in the rear and make rotation more progressive. For the front. Set the plates to zero of one or two marks negative camber (for the street) and ask for as much negative camber from the OE front camber bolts you can get when the alignment is done.

When at an event jack up the car max out the front plates (this will also add some toe-out which will help turn-in) then after the event put the plates back to their "street" settings.

The car will push a lot less, rotate better, and be easier to drive at the limit. Of course getting stiffer springs and adjustable struts or (I hesitate to say) coilovers will complete the system.

The thing is be it bars and/or plates you want to reduce negative camber loss on the front wheels.
SubySal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 02:56 PM   #24
hcsi99
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115175
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Valparaiso, IN.
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza WRX
2012 Outback 3.6R

Default

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=203801

I've been auto-xing for 5 years now with my WRX and this link seemed to help. I too agree the best money spent at this stage would be an auto-x school. My first year with my WRX I took the Evo school day 1 and day 2. I felt a huge improvement in my ability and I was on the (hate to say this) stock tires that came on my car (Bridge Stone what ever all season). I upgraded to adjustable shocks and stiffer springs last year and had been running larger sway bars front and rear for a few years. I run -2.5 camber in the front and -1.5 in the rear with 0 toe out and also run 225 17 Star Specs. My point to telling you my set up is that I would say after running that set up all season last year and this year I think this is the first year I've felt consistent enough that I could actually tell a difference in making a suspension or tire adjustment. Driving ability is the best mod you can make. If you ever get a chance to have a better driver drive your car or drive someone else car that you know is a good driver you will see how much ability matters. Our region always does "instructional runs" at the last solo of the year. It gives people a chance to drive others cars and see how they like it. I jumped in an STI this year and my first time driving his car I beet his best time of the day by over 1 sec. My little region has the privilege of having Jim McKamey run with us. He invented the Evo driving school before it was called the Evo driving school and then sold it back in the 80's. I watched this guy take a Formula TA with slicks and run 2 sec. faster then the owner on a 40 sec course. I didn't let him drive my car in fear of how bad he would have beet me.
hcsi99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 07:31 PM   #25
fastfive09
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169597
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Alright guys, i should have mentioned. Im only 18 and by no means trying to win any trophies. Im just looking to have a good time. However, it does make me angry when I get beat by mustangs...
At this point I have decided to just drive the piss out of my Nexxens and just learn the car more and more until I know what my car will do before I even drive a course.
Being a college student also means I rarely have spending money for the car anymore so the rest of the mods wont come for a while.
A different alignment, KYB AGX's or similar, some springs, and camber bolts/plates are on the wish list.

As a side note: How do you adjust camber on the stock set-up? Is there a thread explaining this?
fastfive09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
quick question on similarities on harnesses simprezl25 Subaru Conversions 1 11-29-2005 10:42 AM
quick question about auto insurance AWDspider Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 1 09-01-2005 11:07 AM
Need some quick advice on Auto-X Tire/Wheel Combo's DiMensionX Brakes, Steering & Suspension 9 09-25-2002 07:26 PM
quick question to auto crossers... subpreza Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 9 05-30-2001 07:58 PM
Question on 95 WRX setup Scientific Brakes, Steering & Suspension 1 05-19-2001 11:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.