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Old 09-16-2010, 10:51 PM   #1
batteryman
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Default 2.5L HTA68 daily driver build with supporting modifications

Hey guys they are not huge numbers but I thought I would share.

Event:
dyno pull
Location: Performance Race Engineering, Portland OR
Ambient Temp: 70
Elevation: 200??
Weather: cloudy

Car: 2006 WRX Wagon with 30k
Tuner: Bobby
Dyno Info: Dyno Dynamics
Transmission: 5spd
Peak HP at RPM: 314.8
Peak Torque at RPM:~290
Target Boost: 17.5
Target AFR:~11.3??
Fuel: Fred Meyer 92 octane

Engine/Power Modifications:

FP HTA68 in a heat blanket
Cobb heat shield
DW 750cc Cobb spec injectors
Walbro 255
M2 Performance huge TMIC with STi splitter
TGV deletes with phenolic spacers
Gimmick inlet with alta MAF
APS short RAM intake with SPT heat shield (we get lots of rain here)
Wrapped aftermarket unequal length headers/ up pipe (like mad dad/ tomei)
TurboXS stealth turbo back

Driveline Modifications: Stock

Other Modifications:Oil pressure and boost gauge, Turboxs Tuner, braided turbo line made by Oil filter Service in Portland (they are AWESOME!), Yakima rack

PRE did a pretty good job, just noticed that when connecting the inlet they didnt hook up a vacuum line....


Any comments on why the lower torque? Just not enough octane?
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Last edited by batteryman; 09-16-2010 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:22 AM   #2
stidoc
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Not enough boost for sure on this turbo, but if a vac line was off I would think that could make a material difference.
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:49 AM   #3
batteryman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stidoc View Post
Not enough boost for sure on this turbo, but if a vac line was off I would think that could make a material difference.
They said they keep it lower if you dont have a FMIC. I am trying to think if a vac line wasnt connected what that would do to the tune.
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:45 AM   #4
stidoc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batteryman View Post
They said they keep it lower if you dont have a FMIC. I am trying to think if a vac line wasnt connected what that would do to the tune.
If you have a "huge" TMIC it ought to be able to handle more airflow and boost than 17.5 lbs.

What was the vac line supposed to be connected to?

Personally, I'd look for a retune somewhere else. If you search both Cobb's and EFI's "Dyno Database", you'll see considerably higher numbers with similar setups to yours. Just saying.

Best and good luck.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:14 AM   #5
mfarnham
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I don't think your tuner knew much about what he was doing. I have a "huge" TMIC and my tuner pushed 18.5 psi on my TD04. I'm making 294wtq.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:00 AM   #6
Dave D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stidoc View Post
If you have a "huge" TMIC it ought to be able to handle more airflow and boost than 17.5 lbs.

What was the vac line supposed to be connected to?

Personally, I'd look for a retune somewhere else. If you search both Cobb's and EFI's "Dyno Database", you'll see considerably higher numbers with similar setups to yours. Just saying.

Best and good luck.
Yes, this is less boost that many VF's are tuned to. My setup with an STi intercooler runs 22psi tapering to about 20. There's no reason (except being kind to stock pistons/tranny) to detune this turbo to such a low boost.

Edit: The more I look at your graph, the more I'm thinking vacuum leak somewhere.

Last edited by Dave D.; 09-17-2010 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:34 PM   #7
batteryman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
Yes, this is less boost that many VF's are tuned to. My setup with an STi intercooler runs 22psi tapering to about 20. There's no reason (except being kind to stock pistons/tranny) to detune this turbo to such a low boost.

Edit: The more I look at your graph, the more I'm thinking vacuum leak somewhere.

Haha you are correct sir, there was a vacuum line (crank breather I believe) that never got connected. Found this once I got home. Let PRE know and they said they would take a look.
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:29 PM   #8
BenGSX
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I'm running up to 28 psi and no FMIC........ (I'm on e85 so I don't count)

But honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to run a lot more than 17 psi on 92.....
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:21 PM   #9
AK SloPok
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I have this turbo and honestly it feels like a slug at anything under 20 psi.. However with just 92 octane I am not sure you are gonna get more than maybe 19psi and even that will taper a bit.
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:39 PM   #10
Dave D.
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Mine runs just fine on 92. And it was tuned on a day with 100+ degree intake temps, with the hood closed.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:57 PM   #11
batteryman
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I have been checking out Cobb's dyno database and it looks like a majority of the time Tim Bailey tunes the 06-07 wrx's with a TMIC around 18 PSI (other than the td04 cars)

I know all dynos are different but I am trying to figure out how someone with a vf43 (scott gray in the database) is making around ~50hp/ torque more than me at 4000 RPM (by witch time I am fully spooled up and at target boost PSI.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:09 AM   #12
stidoc
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Cood b in da toon...
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:45 AM   #13
SlverEJ20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfarnham View Post
I don't think your tuner knew much about what he was doing. I have a "huge" TMIC and my tuner pushed 18.5 psi on my TD04. I'm making 294wtq.


To be honest that HTA is pushing more air at 17 PSI then the TD04 is at 18.5 PSI.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:21 AM   #14
fastnfurious817
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Hey man do you also have 1 step colder plugs? It's safer to run higher boost with colder plugs. I have the same setup + a fmic on my 07 wrx and made 349whp/349wtq at 21 psi at EFI logics. Crank up that boost!
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:38 AM   #15
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You can run more, I ran 21 PSI on a DOM 3 with an APS TMIC and never had an issue. Still had stock block and trans.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:01 AM   #16
batteryman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastnfurious817 View Post
Hey man do you also have 1 step colder plugs? It's safer to run higher boost with colder plugs. I have the same setup + a fmic on my 07 wrx and made 349whp/349wtq at 21 psi at EFI logics. Crank up that boost!
No unfortunately I just have Iridium IX plugs that are the same as the stock ones.
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Old 09-23-2010, 02:45 PM   #17
LatentWagen
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regarding the crank breather vac leak and your tune... when you hit boost they close off IIRC, so it shouldn't affect anything other than your idle. fix the vac leak and you're fine.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:45 PM   #18
SubiAddict
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how do you guys like the hta68?? ive been lookin at turbos and it seemed like a good turbo for what im lookin for ( a little over 300awhp)
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlverEJ20 View Post
To be honest that HTA is pushing more air at 17 PSI then the TD04 is at 18.5 PSI.
That's not the issue. The issue that would be holding him back is heat. And the TD04L-13T at 18.5 psi is going to make much more heat than the HTA at 17 psi. It's all in compressor efficiency.

I agree that the boost needs to be turned up. But consider this....this tune is probably rock solid reliable. Even in full heat-soak status he could probably do a WOT pull and be fine. Perhaps that's what he wanted?
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:27 PM   #20
Kupkake
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^that.
Still the numbers seem low. Something isn't being said, or something is still unknown.

A lot lies in the tune.
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:02 PM   #21
Dave D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kupkake View Post
^that.
Still the numbers seem low. Something isn't being said, or something is still unknown.

A lot lies in the tune.
OK, I'm more or less quoting Dom here, but the heat soak is coming from the restriction of the 7cm hotside, a restriction that does not seem to affect cars using E85 or meth. It cuts down hp some, and tq quite a lot (this last statement is my own conclusion from reading every hta68 report here that I can find).

Pump gas and the 7cm hta68 is not the greatest mix.

Here's a couple of threads that pertain to this matter:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ighlight=hta68 (Never quite resolved all the issues.)

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ighlight=hta68 (My 10cm setup which seems to give a good pump gas 92 result.)

My 92 pump gas setup initally boosts 22 psi and holds 20psi past 7k.

Last edited by Dave D.; 09-24-2010 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:15 PM   #22
Dave D.
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Double post.
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
OK, I'm more or less quoting Dom here, but the heat soak is coming from the restriction of the 7cm hotside, a restriction that does not seem to affect cars using E85 or meth. It cuts down hp some, and tq quite a lot (this last statement is my own conclusion from reading every hta68 report here that I can find).

Pump gas and the 7cm hta68 is not the greatest mix.

Here's a couple of threads that pertain to this matter:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ighlight=hta68 (Never quite resolved all the issues.)

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ighlight=hta68 (My 10cm setup which seems to give a good pump gas 92 result.)

My 92 pump gas setup initally boosts 22 psi and holds 20psi past 7k.

Dave, we resolved all the issues on the first thread you posted. The car made what the car was going to make with that turbo and no AVCS.

Fact is, that turbo BLOWS and not in a good way. The claims from FP of 47lbm are pure bogus as the tdo5 housing has no ability to flow anywhere near that amount of air.

FP was originally offering the turbo only with a 7cm2 housing. I spoke to the lead tech over there and they made a bunch of B.S. claims that later came down to the fact that their supplier of 8cm2 housings was no longer. It seems that lately they have fixed that and offer the HTA68 with an 8cm2 housing. Is that better? Yes. Is that enough? No. The turbo still sucks on pump gas alone. Meth injection, race gas, e85 is the only way this turbo can make serious power. Why is that? easy, it's unbalanced.
The race gas is needed to combat the excessively high back pressures that are produced when running high boost on this turbo.

Moral: turbo sucks. Major mismatch, crappy spool for the power it delivers.

There are so many other turbos out there that outflow and outspool this turbo with better reliability for the end user.

Example: made 408whp on an Element GT52 yesterday. Full boost of 22 psi by 3500rpm. BONE STOCK 2.5L
Another: Twin Scroll 35R: 500whp w/ full boost by 4k rpm.
Another: DOM 1.0XT-R 385whp on pump, stock motor, full boost by 3600 (21psi)

Where does this turbo fit? Nowhere. 2nd biggest lie/farce in subaru history and it's all thanks to COBB's post about it a long time ago. They had meth injection on the car and nobody realized it. So everyone started buying the turbo.
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:56 PM   #24
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and to the OP.
sorry for mucking up the thread (if I did)..


Seems to me that 300whp is VF territory. I'd sell the turbo and get an 18G-XT from blouch w/ an 8cm2 housing. More power, same spool, less backpressure, and engine will last longer.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:24 PM   #25
Dave D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Dave, we resolved all the issues on the first thread you posted. The car made what the car was going to make with that turbo and no AVCS.
That's right, it was the non-AVCS.

Well, I'm still happy with the way mine performs, and the trouble you took to tune it.

I'd have to generally agree with your conclusion, however.
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