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Old 02-03-2011, 02:29 PM   #1
Equilibrium Tuning
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Default EQ: 2009 WRX, E85, FMIC - Road Dyno + Chassis Dyno Results!

Event: Dyno Tune/Road Tune
Location: Equilibrium Tuning - Fairfield, CA
Ambient Temp: 65 degrees Fahrenheit
Elevation: 200ft above sea level
Weather: Sunny

Car: 2009 Subaru WRX
Tuner: ED @ EQ Tuning
Peak HP at RPM: 337whp
Peak Torque at RPM: 405ft-lbs
Target Boost: 22psi peak
Fuel: E85
Engine/Power Modifications:


Catless TBE
Perrin EL Headers
EWG UP with Tial 38mm
TurboXS FMIC and Intake
EQ Tuning Custom Blow-Through MAF piping
Greddy RZ BOV
Walbro Fuel Pump
Hallman MBC
DW1000cc Injectors
EQ Tuning Custom Tune



We made the blow-through piping and finished up the tune on this car yesterday. So far this is the quickest and best running 09 WRX I've done. I was asked to keep the torque relatively "mild" due to the 5 speed, so we kept peak boost to 22psi.

I started the tune on our Dynocom chassis dyno and touched it up on the road.

Here is the chart from the dyno tune:



And here is the road dyno chart:



As you can see, the car spooled a bit faster on the road which resulted in a bit more torque and an earlier torque peak. It was also able to carry more power out to redline due to the increased airflow at high speed on the road as compared to the dyno environment. There were no changes in timing between the two pulls, just a couple very small corrections in a/f.

This comparison also clearly shows how I calibrated our dyno to read very closely to my road dyno software. Considering the difference in conditions between the road and dyno, the results are VERY close. FYI, I am running a .85 correction factor on the chassis dyno to achieve this calibration.

Just for fun, here is the same chassis dyno chart without the .85 correction:



400whp VF52 anyone?


*** Standard Dyno Chart Disclaimer ***

This software reads low and should be compared to the lower reading mustang dynos. Here are some proven numbers and trap speeds for reference:

Stock WRX - 155-165whp
Stock STI - 215-225whp

265-275whp - 107-108mph traps
300-310whp - 112-113mph traps
325-335whp - 115-116mph traps
380-390whp - 122-123mph traps

*** End Disclaimer ***


Thanks
-- Ed
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Last edited by Equilibrium Tuning; 02-03-2011 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #2
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Wow sick torque! Nice results Ed. I wish I had E85 around here (well more than one station lol)! I wonder how the 5 speed will hold up...
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:09 PM   #3
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Very nice Ed and I really like how you compare how YOUR road dyno software and it reflects your dyno #'s at .85 cf and how high the dyno can read with a different cf to show what can be done by some magical tuners on this forum.This is why I respect your posts.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
Very nice Ed and I really like how you compare how YOUR road dyno software and it reflects your dyno #'s at .85 cf and how high the dyno can read with a different cf to show what can be done by some magical tuners on this forum.This is why I respect your posts.
Thanks... that's just how the dyno would read with no correction factor at all. I imagine its closer to what most dynojets read. I like to keep things consistent, so I calibrated it to read just like my software using a bone stock 06 STI and doing pulls within an hour of eachother.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:27 PM   #5
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Looks like fun. I want E85!

But I don't really understand why you set your dyno to a 0.85 correction factor which results in such low numbers on a stock car. Seems pointless to me, why not just leave it at CF=1? Was it changed to match your road dyno software? If so, that seems backwards.

Not saying you're trying to "trick" anyone or doing anything wrong, but it seems that you're implying that other tuners are inferior because they boast high numbers, while you post low numbers with a strong disclaimer at the bottom of each post on how low your dyno reads. It seems like the same thing to me. Just accomplished the opposite way.

Either way, the best solution is just to have an actual baseline run of the same car on the same dyno (same correction). Otherwise it's all just talk, IMO. But the results do look good. Not arguing with your tuning ability. Just the presentation of that data that puts me off.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Thanks... that's just how the dyno would read with no correction factor at all. I imagine its closer to what most dynojets read. I like to keep things consistent, so I calibrated it to read just like my software using a bone stock 06 STI and doing pulls within an hour of eachother.

Thanks
-- Ed
You posted this right before my post. I guess this has some reasoning behind it, but why not just adjust the software to match the dyno (that is presumably calibrated to some extend by the manufacturer)?

EDIT: I do like how straightforward you are on explaining the process of calibrating one to read like the other. I won't argue with the fact that your chosen calibration method has done a very good job of giving similar results!
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:37 PM   #7
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^^^you have to admit there are quite a few tuners that do post high #'s and most have not been backed up at the track.Ed from EQ and Mike from innovative always seem to put up low reading #'S which to me is a good thing because then when the customer goes to the track he is happy not disappointed by the results.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:40 PM   #8
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Great job Ed! I'm curious about the 5spd as well. Seems getting crazy torque figures is pretty easy with just exhaust and tune, has Subaru done anything to beef the trans up to handle such power since the EJ205 days?
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
Very nice Ed and I really like how you compare how YOUR road dyno software and it reflects your dyno #'s at .85 cf and how high the dyno can read with a different cf to show what can be done by some magical tuners on this forum.This is why I respect your posts.
^AGREED!! I'm sure there are several tuners out there that would have posted the almost 400whp chart and brag away...
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:55 PM   #10
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500 tq VF is only a twist of the hallman away Ed.

dew eet
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:56 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
^^^you have to admit there are quite a few tuners that do post high #'s and most have not been backed up at the track.Ed from EQ and Mike from innovative always seem to put up low reading #'S which to me is a good thing because then when the customer goes to the track he is happy not disappointed by the results.
Good point. I retract my previous statements.

I still feel that with a TRUE baseline, someone should still be able to figure out what they will trap, even on a high reading dyno.
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Good point. I retract my previous statements.

I still feel that with a TRUE baseline, someone should still be able to figure out what they will trap, even on a high reading dyno.
I agree, its all about the delta really. The virtual dyno readings are ridiculous, I've said this more than a few times. But I list stock whp in my own posts. The % of increase is relative no matter the power level.

Ed, I've had the argument with many about top end on a chassis compared to the top end on a road dyno. Do you truly think in real world conditions that 2.5L vf car's carry to redline due to air flow and a cooler charge? This was my point when I started using the road dyno's. Some label it as credible, some thought it was ridiculous. Obviously there is some taper on the road, some cars more than others. But no where's near the taper when considering a chassis dyno.

-Mikey

Last edited by STi Mikey; 02-03-2011 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:36 PM   #13
Equilibrium Tuning
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Looks like fun. I want E85!

But I don't really understand why you set your dyno to a 0.85 correction factor which results in such low numbers on a stock car. Seems pointless to me, why not just leave it at CF=1? Was it changed to match your road dyno software? If so, that seems backwards.

Not saying you're trying to "trick" anyone or doing anything wrong, but it seems that you're implying that other tuners are inferior because they boast high numbers, while you post low numbers with a strong disclaimer at the bottom of each post on how low your dyno reads. It seems like the same thing to me. Just accomplished the opposite way.

Either way, the best solution is just to have an actual baseline run of the same car on the same dyno (same correction). Otherwise it's all just talk, IMO. But the results do look good. Not arguing with your tuning ability. Just the presentation of that data that puts me off.
I set it to .85 to make the chassis dyno read like my road dyno software which I've been using for the past 7 years. I have a lot of proven results from the numbers my software produces, and I've also shown that it reads almost identically with the lower reading Mustang dynos that have not been messed with to inflate the numbers. Finally, my road dyno software does not and never has used any sort of correction factors... its pure physics which makes the most sense to me.

I wanted to keep the numbers from my chassis dyno consistent with all my previous results, so this was the best approach in my mind. It may not be the best option for marketing or ego boosting, but I got used to that with my road dyno software anyway. In the end, numbers are just numbers and real world results speak for themselves.

FWIW, the bone stock 06 STI I used for calibration ended up putting down 216whp on my road dyno software and the chassis dyno with the .85 CF. Without the CF, it was at 254whp which is what I'd expect to see on a Dynojet. I always have this baseline on file for anyone interested in comparing their results.

I was not making any inference toward any other tuners. I just thought it would be interesting to post the results without the CF as a comparison to show how high this dyno would read normally. The disclaimer in each of my posts is an attempt to make it easier to compare my results with other dynos that may read differently by providing real world results from different power levels. It also alleviates the constant "those numbers seem LOW" comments that I used to get all the time

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:40 PM   #14
Equilibrium Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
You posted this right before my post. I guess this has some reasoning behind it, but why not just adjust the software to match the dyno (that is presumably calibrated to some extend by the manufacturer)?

EDIT: I do like how straightforward you are on explaining the process of calibrating one to read like the other. I won't argue with the fact that your chosen calibration method has done a very good job of giving similar results!
That was honestly a coincidence... threads move around all the time .

I hope my above explanation answers this as well.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:40 PM   #15
Equilibrium Tuning
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Originally Posted by Steve.804 View Post
Great job Ed! I'm curious about the 5spd as well. Seems getting crazy torque figures is pretty easy with just exhaust and tune, has Subaru done anything to beef the trans up to handle such power since the EJ205 days?
Supposedly the newer ones are stronger, but I haven't looked into it too much.

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
500 tq VF is only a twist of the hallman away Ed.

dew eet
I know... another couple psi and it would have hit 500ft-lbs no problem

I think this is the last time I look at any of my tunes without the CF... its too much for the ego!

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
Ed, I've had the argument with many about top end on a chasis compared to the top end on a road dyno. Do you truly think in real world conditions that 2.5L vf car's carry to redline due to air flow and a cooler charge? This was my point when I started using the road dyno's. Some label it as credible, some thought it was ridiculous. Obviously there is some taper on the road, some cars more than others. But no where's near the taper when considering a chasis dyno.

-Mikey
Yes, from doing extensive testing on and off the dyno, I do believe that most dynos exaggerate the drop off on the top end. Some cars do show a significant drop even on the road, but others carry power out just fine.

My only theories on why they exaggerate the drop so much are airflow and loading. Through some testing, I kind of ruled out the loading part of the equation. In fact, the more I load the car (slow down the run), the more drop off I usually see. I believe this is simply from lack of air flow and heat soak of the system which is not as prevalent on the road.

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
I was asked to keep the torque relatively "mild" due to the 5 speed, so we kept peak boost to 22psi.
LOL. That's still a ton of torque. Serious stock turbo power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
Ed, I've had the argument with many about top end on a chasis compared to the top end on a road dyno. Do you truly think in real world conditions that 2.5L vf car's carry to redline due to air flow and a cooler charge? This was my point when I started using the road dyno's. Some label it as credible, some thought it was ridiculous. Obviously there is some taper on the road, some cars more than others. But no where's near the taper when considering a chasis dyno.

-Mikey
From what I've seen based on MAF readings, the reduction in tapering on the road dyno software is due to a difference in how the software calculates power, not due to an actual increase in top end flow, but admittedly I've only used road dyno software a few times and it wasn't Ed's software. His road dyno software may be more accurate than the version I tried.

On a related note, I've tuned on many different dynos and they load cars differently which plays a part in the shape of the curve generated as well as the tuning. For example, if you tune on a Dynojet you can end up with a car that's rich on the road on the top end and if you tune a car so the AFRs are correct on the road, it will often go lean on the top end on a Dynojet. I chalk this up to the lack of load control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
I set it to .85 to make the chassis dyno read like my road dyno software which I've been using for the past 7 years. I have a lot of proven results from the numbers my software produces
Makes sense to me.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
From what I've seen based on MAF readings, the reduction in tapering on the road dyno software is due to a difference in how the software calculates power, not due to an actual increase in top end flow, but admittedly I've only used road dyno software a few times and it wasn't Ed's software. His road dyno software may be more accurate than the version I tried.
This is what I thought for a while as well, but after doing more testing on the chassis dyno, I'm fairly convinced that the taper mostly has to do with limited air flow. I've had some cars that show nearly an identical taper on the chassis dyno as on the road dyno, yet other cars show a much more drastic taper on the chassis dyno. I've found that the cars that show more of a taper on the chassis dyno tend to be higher hp cars that are running at the edge of the efficiency range for the given turbo. This makes me think that on the road these cars tend to get more air and cooling and are able to hold the power out while on the dyno they just drop power to redline from heat soak.

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:12 PM   #20
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Kudos to you Ed for providing your potential customers with honest results mate - hopefully other tuners/dyno-owners/dyno-operators will follow your lead and put a little more effort into calibrating their dynos so the results given are more realistic.

Anything to stop the ever increasing bloated and bs dyno figures being thrown around is a win for customers


You are the light in a dark place
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
This is what I thought for a while as well, but after doing more testing on the chassis dyno, I'm fairly convinced that the taper mostly has to do with limited air flow. I've had some cars that show nearly an identical taper on the chassis dyno as on the road dyno, yet other cars show a much more drastic taper on the chassis dyno. I've found that the cars that show more of a taper on the chassis dyno tend to be higher hp cars that are running at the edge of the efficiency range for the given turbo. This makes me think that on the road these cars tend to get more air and cooling and are able to hold the power out while on the dyno they just drop power to redline from heat soak.

-- Ed
Yup. I only road dyno tested a few cars, less than 5 IIRC so I don't have much data to draw from. I have tons of road testing logs I could run through road dyno software, but I don't doubt what you are saying is true for some cars so I'll take your word for it. I wrote up a tech article a while ago about the direct relationship between HP and charge temps and I think you're absolutely right that if charge temps remain lower on the top end due to extra cooling on the road you'll see less of a taper in HP.

I can also tell you that I have lots of track logs and when we set an intake up for a race car we can generate a few more PSI of boost at higher vehicle speeds than we could make on the dyno...but that's an increase in boost causing an increase in power and that's only helpful on setups that are maxed out.

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 02-03-2011 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:36 PM   #22
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Ed, great job on the tune. It's definitely an abnormal 09 WRX. How does the blow-thru affect your tune and drive-ability? Did it require additional time to fine tune?
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:37 PM   #23
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Yep... that's the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

I need to talk to you about those ViPec ECU's! I need to get my hands on one to play with. Do they have an 07 STI application?

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:40 PM   #24
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Ed, great job on the tune. It's definitely an abnormal 09 WRX. How does the blow-thru affect your tune and drive-ability? Did it require additional time to fine tune?
I wouldn't say its abnormal... it made about the power I'd expect for the setup and fuel.

We had this car running previously on a draw-through MAF and while the WOT power levels were fine, the car did exhibit some pretty dramatic rich spikes on quick boost transitions and especially during aggressive shifting. It was very noticeable when driving the car, so we decided to convert it to blow-through to alleviate the issue. Blow-through MAF's do take a bit more tuning to get running properly, but if the pipe is set up well, the end result is almost always fantastic. Greatly improved drivability, crisper throttle feel, and no rich spike. I also like the fact that the ECU is now seeing post intercooler charge temps.

-- Ed
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #25
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Yup there's a ViPec V88 jumper harness and bridge setup for 04-07 North American STI. I'd be happy to talk ViPec any time.
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