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Old 05-16-2002, 05:47 AM   #1
WRXnFX
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Default Nano: School me on the S-AFC

I'm reading a thread about the S-AFC and everyday I read more about it the more I want one. I know it adjusts air/fuel ratios but what other features is it capable of? What other companies besides APEXi sell good controllers? I'd rather go this route instead of a Unichip.

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Old 05-16-2002, 06:22 AM   #2
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Yeah me too! I want to, I know nano whats up with this thingamabobit S-afc whats it capable of i want one NOW!
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Old 05-16-2002, 06:25 AM   #3
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The biggest WRX problem is the ECU and timing. The ECU loves to pull the timing when ever there is a change in A/F ratios. Some people have had luck with the S-AFC and others haven't. ITCs don't seem to work either.

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Old 05-16-2002, 10:28 AM   #4
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Winslow,
I have one installed in my Z but didnt have the chance to strap that thing to a dyno before I came over here. I know of Z's that have realized as much as 40 rwhp from CONSERVATIVE tuning. I did have the chance to set the deceleration setting so that the car didn't stall at low speeds after the BOVs released. When I get back to the states I am going to get on the dyno for a day to tune both the AVCR and AFC. I know that it is a worth while investment short of getting a completely programmable ECU (Haltech or Link). Go to this link to get all the info you might want for the AFC. if you need more info let me know, I can dig up some old posts of the Z website, there are pages of discussion about it. Go under the functional overview to get a more detailed discription of the AFC.

http://www.APEXi-usa.com/electronics_safc.asp
my Job when I am not racing the car \/\/\/\/
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Old 05-16-2002, 05:52 PM   #5
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Allen (brokeawd) is also a S-AFC god...think he's the one who taught Paul the tricks of it.

It's a confusing little thing to the untrained eye.....

- Jason
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Old 05-16-2002, 08:47 PM   #6
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Ok, so I should have called the thread, "Anyone, school me on the S-AFC." I'm not sure how much of it will work on the WRX but it's worth a shot. Yes, we know who Allen is.

Winslow
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Old 05-17-2002, 06:50 AM   #7
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I know winslow what were you thinking?


Any who try it and let me know eeh you'll be the ginue pig.

That thing is hard too work on i cant understand it!
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Old 05-17-2002, 08:05 AM   #8
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I taught how to use the S-AFC my self.. It really isn't as hard as it looks. All the S-AFC does is tune fuel trim along 8 different rpm points at low and high throtle settings. It also averages hi and lo throtle settings while in part throtle. The usefulness of the afc is to smooth out the air fuel ratio curve throught out the rpm band. Most factory cars run on the rich side. By leaning them out with the AFC you can usually get a good gain in power. Sometimes when you add mods to a car the stock ecu has issues getting the A/F ratio right. Often causing extra mods to not get the ideal HP results and if the car runs to lean even causing the ecu to pull timming on car with nock sensors like the WRX. On our cars if you accidentally adjust your settings a bit to lean it will cause the ecu to pull timming. I don't see any other way the ecu wold know your running lean unless it detects knock. I would assume this is why some people are getting their timming pulled with it. I think it's a great tool with great potential if used and tuned right. But it can also kill the performance and destroy an engine under the wrong hands.
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Old 05-17-2002, 02:32 PM   #9
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Alright folks this could get long.

First off I have no clue how WRX like the map the fuel timing curves etc. So it would be kinda tricky to actually say how to set one up without actually playing with one. You also need something where you can view engine parameters such as timing, 02, rpm, egt etc.

IMOP a WRX running stock boost and fuel system shouldnt really need that much afc tuning. Now when you throw some boost fluctuations and airflow enhancements in there is when the afc comes in. Im theory the ECU is supposed to keep up with the airflow and raise fuel pressure with the boost and adjust timing curves and fuel maps accordingly. Like I said im not sure how a WRX works so im clueless.

On a dsm at least my car and 1g and 2g dsm's are 2 different cars. On mine you have the HI MAP and LO MAP. I basically think of high map as when your 80% Throttle position or higher which would be your WOT settings, and LO your cruising around town and highway settings. Tuning for LO settings is pretty easy but should remain around 0 if you have no fuel mods etc. When you throw a larger set of injectors in there, I will use 550cc injectors as an example. They are approx 15% bigger than stock. So in all reality you would go to -15% on the afc and you would still have stock fuel settings. Then you thrown in variables such as modded mas meters that let air by to allow more air into the motor, gets tricky quick if you dont know what your doing.

On the HI map which is where you extract most of your power from because they are WOT settings. As my car goes up in rpm I have found my car and others have liked 2-4% increments in adjustments from 3000-7000 because this is where your boost settings are, I.E. 4000=+4% 5000=+6% and so forth. I do this because as your rpm's are rising your motor is more in the effieciency and horsepower range so it needs more fuel to work properly and not run lean, especially when you have more HP mods such as BC and exhaust intake etc. Hope this doesnt confuse you.

Usually how I tell if the car goes lean is too watch the EGT/02, if your WOT and the EGT just spikes up...your probably getting timing pulled and your lean and knocking. Knock will decrease a timing curve. I usually tune for 0-5 knock, cause then you know that you are on the edge and not dog piss rich. My rule of thumb when making fuel adjustments on the HI map is make them in 4% adjustments, sometimes 1 or 2% isnt enough to make a difference.

Common mistakes about the S-AFC is that is a modded ecu.."ricer term" I see it used as a cool looking mod just for looks and not to extract HP. All the AFC does is intercept the airlfow signal coming from the mas meter...sends it to the AFC box..coverts it, then gives it back to the wiring harness and then on the ecu.

IMOP not to bang on UNICHIP. I think its BS from what I have heard it adjusts timing and fuel, but there could be more. The Fuel can be done with the AFC and timing is useless if your running lean. Good timing should come with a good tune. The afc lets you make those " on the fly" changes a chip cant. Im still on a bonestock unmodded ECU in my car. My afc is my only tuning tool, and I plan to make over 400 hp at the wheels with this setup. True...wrx and dsm are not the same by no means., but the afc is a kick ass tool that can go a long ways.

Hope I didnt confuse anyone.....Later

Last edited by brokeawd; 05-17-2002 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 05-17-2002, 03:03 PM   #10
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Made sense to me suprisingly

- Jason
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Old 05-17-2002, 04:32 PM   #11
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Well said Allen..
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Old 05-17-2002, 06:06 PM   #12
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Okay then which rex is gonna sport the AFC?
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:23 PM   #13
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mine! after my apexi avr-c next friday!
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:45 PM   #14
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I am going to try the avcr and yhr safc.
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Old 05-17-2002, 11:14 PM   #15
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AVC-R is a ricer boost control...get the same performance from a 50 dollar manual. Just my opinion though....
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Old 05-18-2002, 12:37 AM   #16
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AVC-R is a waste of money. There are so many other cheaper ways of making boost.

I'm curious about running the S-AFC. I'm wondering how the ECU will control the timing. We'll see.

Winslow
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Old 05-18-2002, 06:36 AM   #17
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Sorry, going to have to disagree with the last few statements. Although the AVCR is one of the most complicated things to put in a car it is great at what it does. Mine holds the boost perfect. And...it is nice to be able to set the boost low in 1st gear then increase it as the gears and RPM go up. If you know of a $50 boost controller that does that let me know, i would rather put the money into other parts of the car than spend the money on another AVCR. granted it has a few features that are not needed, the over all package is worth it. Just being aboe to use the playback mode to see if the boost is spiking or dropping off and at what RPM or gear it is doing it in. I agree that it is alot of money to spend but it gives the flexability and in car control that no manual controller can give. But that is just my 2 cents.
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Old 05-18-2002, 07:38 AM   #18
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Just what i was goning to say aZiator tell tem what's up.

Two blue screens is better than one.
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Old 05-20-2002, 06:37 AM   #19
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aziator dont get me wrong. Apexi doesnt put out a crappy product by no mean. Its nice to have all those features and adjustable gear settings for boost on the fly etc, but money is an issue to me. The "good" manuals have been proven by many in the turbo industry way into the 11, 10 and 9 second ranges.

I will go ahead and say up front Turbo XS boost controllers I am not happy with and a couple others. I have track tested a boost controller that I purchased for myself to compare with my Profec-B which is an awesome controller, but the profec-b wont make enough boost for me. This Manual controller costed me 52 dollars shipped, its a spring and ball bearing controller. The results I received from this controller were outstanding. Same boost response, no spikes, no creeps. Car ran 12.12@114 with the profec B swapped boost controllers between runs 20 minutes later car went 12.09@114. Same boost level etc. Boost was rock solid the whole way down at 23 psi.

Boost spikes is a very common occurence...I sometime see spikes to 27 psi with stable boost at 25psi, but that is for 1/4 second intervals inbetween shifts.

So for my application I cant see running different boost levels in different gears, just isnt practical, im sure I will run into some traction problems with my new setup and I will have to revamp how I bring the car outa the whole, but thats life. So I will take that back "ricer" comment, I apololgize. I just think money " for me" could be spent better elsewhere.

Later

Oh BTW here is the link to the controller I am running
www.boostcontroller.com
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Old 05-20-2002, 06:55 AM   #20
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I agree with you on the flexability but it's too much money for something that could be spent elsewhere. It is nice to be able to run the different boost in each gear for traction control. I've also heard many people complain about the AVC-r not being able to control the wategate at high boost. The play back feature is nice but can be had with any quality datalogger such as the one by EcuTek and a few others plus you get the ability to monitor the whole car and not just boost. If you want a BC that can run at different boost in lower gears try using a dual stage. You can make those for $12.

Winslow
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:48 PM   #21
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I agree with what you guys are saying about not needing the different boost in different gears, with AWD that probably isnt a big concern. on the other hand, if i didnt dial back the boost in 1st on my other car I wouldnt get anywhere. To each his own...but your right it is a whole heck of a lot of money.
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Old 05-20-2002, 07:11 PM   #22
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Another thing, I think most manuals have gotten their bad reps from the " fish tank bleeder valves" I tried one of those out back in highschool on a dodge daytona and boost was heka sloppy, it creeped, spiked etc.

Good manuals have came along way. I think the avc-r is a good controller although I havent heard about the boost controlling problem. I know with the profec-b I cant make enough boost along with several other dsm guys in alaska..most spike to 23 and fall to 19, that is with everything turned up. We have pressure checked IC systems etc, changed setting and all remains the same. Other than that its an awesome controller.
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:22 PM   #23
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Yup.. My proffec B is great and rock stable. Great for when I run on pump gas. But when it comes to making some real boost at anything higher then 20psi my Extremme ball bearing type MBC just works better and holds boost very well. My best times where made on my MBC.
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:37 PM   #24
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Which one and kind is the best for a wrx (Boost) MBC OR EBC.
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:21 PM   #25
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Well it depends.. If you want a daily driver running pump gas then I'd get the proffecB. It's just easier to tune and more practical. But if you plan to run very high boost then get an MBC.
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