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Old 05-19-2002, 09:25 AM   #1
Tensecgn
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Default Turbo 1.8 need help

Hi everyone,this is what I have.A 94 Impreza 5 speed awd.I installed a 2.5 short block with a set of 2.2 ported heads.The intake is a 2.2 with the 1.8 sensors and throttle body.The turbo is a t3 with a front mount intercooler.Here is the problem.You drive the car normal and it runs good.When you stab the gas pedal hard and the boost starts to come in the car goes into a bog/skipping/breaking up.This is at 0-2psi.
Here are the parts swapped already.Mass air,injectors,igniter,coil,valvesprings,ignition relay,cam/cranksensors,plugs.I`m looking for ideas.We had this motor in a 90 legacy with no problems.Had the scan tool on it and no codes and no sensor failure.Do notice the o2 sensor goes to 0.00.Our a/f gauge goes to lean.
Any help or ideas are welcomed.
Tony
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:18 PM   #2
Scoobie Steve
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Sounds like you are running out of fuel under boost. Please tell me you used 2.5l injectors. What year/model did the 2.2l heads come off of? Putting 2.2l heads on a 2.5l raises the compression ratio.... probaly past 10.7:1 Not good for a turbocharger. Are u using anything to increase fuel flow under boost, FMU, SAFC. I wouldnt drive it anymore until you get the lean problem FIXED!
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:39 PM   #3
aigburth
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HI.
I'm having the same problems I've got a '96 1.8,I put a ej20 in using all 1.8 sensors,so their is no knock sensor.The ecu protects the motor by not allowing the motor to go anywhere near knock.I bought a s-afc to trick the ecu but there are no direction's for installation on my car,if I can get this in maybe this will solve both of are problems.
Alan
p.s. I have no check engine light,how about you.
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Old 05-19-2002, 02:00 PM   #4
Hondaslayer
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Have you tried swapping the O2 sensor yet?
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Old 05-19-2002, 02:10 PM   #5
subachad
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Tens, Are you using a MAP or MAF?

Chad
93 1.8T
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Old 05-19-2002, 03:52 PM   #6
Tensecgn
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We have tried a new o2 sensor and no change.We are using a super fc fuel computer and have added up to 30% and no change.
We are using a maf.
We were using the 2.5 injectors and no change now we installed the 1.8 injectors and still the problem.Before we installed the motor i took the pistons to the machine shop and had them remove .035 off the tops of them.So now they are in the whole .010.
We also have an adjustible fuel regulator,i tryied it at 40 psi,then
at 70 psi and no change.
I cannot beleive that it`s a motor problem due to just swapping from car to car.
I also performed the fuel rail mod from ravens site and that didn`t help.Import day is 2 weeks away and i`m trying to get this resolved.We are trying to run at least low 13`s with this setup.
Help
Tony
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Old 05-19-2002, 07:00 PM   #7
aigburth
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I'm going to try a couple of thing's tomorrow,if you could let me know which wires you tapped into for your s-afc that would be great.
Alan
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Old 05-20-2002, 09:17 AM   #8
subachad
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Do you have a BOV? Does it vent to atmosphere?
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Old 05-20-2002, 06:52 PM   #9
aigburth
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No blowoff valve,it vent's to the intake.I played with the T.P.S. today that helped,but I'm still running way to rich and the motor bog's at 5000 rpm,so don't let anyone tell you you need a fuel pump yet,still looking for s-afc direction's.
Alan
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:52 PM   #10
Graham
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Yes do say what wires you tapped into for the S-AFC. Alan is having the same problem on his car, as we can't get his AFC to work because we can't find which wires to split for the fuel wires (harness on the S-AFC). So, if you could provide this information, we can try and run his S-AFC and see if we get any changes.

Intersesting, it seems Tens is running way to lean, while Alan is running way to rich. All these damn bogging problems.

Oh, and 2.2L heads on the EJ25? Thats kind of funky.
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Old 05-21-2002, 07:10 AM   #11
Kevin Thomas
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Question Tony

Tony (Tensecgn)

Are you running lean throughout your rpm range (at WOT) or are you just runing lean between certain rpms? I'm just wondering if it's between 5k-6krpm.

I'm just trying to be clear on it since you said the problem occurs at 0-2psi. Is 2psi the max boost you are running now or is the car running lean between 0-2psi and you have a higher max boost? Thanks!
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:50 AM   #12
Graham
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Kevin, did you install a S-AFC on your OBS? If you read the post above, Aigburth whom I'm helping on a Jap. Spec Conversion, is having trouble putting in the S-AFC and I'm curious if you could possibly shed some light on which wires need to be tapped for unit. It is going into a 1.8L single plug ECU, out of a 1996 Impreza L, but it now has a Legacy B4 engine in it and its running richer than Bill Gates. Thanks.


Graham
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Old 05-21-2002, 11:46 AM   #13
Kevin Thomas
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Default ECU inputs

Quote:
Originally posted by Graham
Kevin, did you install a S-AFC on your OBS? If you read the post above, Aigburth whom I'm helping on a Jap. Spec Conversion, is having trouble putting in the S-AFC and I'm curious if you could possibly shed some light on which wires need to be tapped for unit. It is going into a 1.8L single plug ECU, out of a 1996 Impreza L, but it now has a Legacy B4 engine in it and its running richer than Bill Gates. Thanks.


Graham
Graham,

I had a Hyper SFC installed (uninstalled now) on the OBS. I have the Apex S-AFC installed in my XT6. The shop that I had install it was scratching their heads big time. Apex USA nor Apex Japan could help or cared to help since it isn't for my car's application. Good thing my mechanic speaks Japanase!

I wanted to know about the 1.8L and S-AFC coming together since my XT6 is just a 1.8L with two more cylinders tacked on. I'm running lean (very very lean) between 5k-6k rpm and I haven't been able to resolve this problem for quite some time now. A new fuel filter, high flowing fuel pump (upwards to 500hp), raised fuel pressures, Pro-ECM Powerchip and even the AFC haven't been able to help. Same results although the Pro-ECM did struggle. +50% at High throttle between 5k-6k did nothing. My injectors have even been cleaned by RC Engineering. Nothing! *As a point of reference, the 1.8ltr injectors flow 185cc/min according to the injector cleaning results I got back.* I'm scratching my head looking at the fuel pressure regulator, fuel rail and the ECU.

So....I'm waiting, watching, asking for help and learning. I hope you guys come up with something. I called RalliSpec and I'm waiting for an answer. I hope this isn't some 1.8ltr thing.

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 05-21-2002 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:35 PM   #14
A-Train
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Kevin T.....
Would P&H Lucas style injectors work for this application.
I have a set from rc engineering ready to go I just dont know If they work for gc8 or gda or what can you shed some light??
They are 500 cc by the way plus for real fuel managment younshould try a haltech for absolute fuel control with tremendous resolution on the tables.
Andrew
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:24 PM   #15
Graham
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Well Kevin, it would be greatly appreciated if you could find out which wire on your XT6 ECU was cut for air flow. Right now on my friends 1.8L ECU, we can't find which wire is for air flow, so if you could just tell me a pinout number I think our problem would be solved, seeing the ECU's seem to be simililar. All we need is a name or a number for the wire. Just to be clear, the air flow wire is the ONLY one that you must splice into and attach two wires from the S-AFC. Basically, this is the wire where the S-AFC is brought into the picture to make its adjustments, we just can't find the right wire to splice.

Thanks

Graham
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:54 PM   #16
Kevin Thomas
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Default Questions & Answers

Quote:
Originally posted by Graham
Well Kevin, it would be greatly appreciated if you could find out which wire on your XT6 ECU was cut for air flow. Thanks

Graham
Graham,

I'd have to ask my shop for that information. I looked at my ECu about 45 minutes ago trying to locate this wire you speak of but it's complicated. The only thing I see tapped into the ECU's wiring is the Pro Ecm Powerchip. The SAFC is hooked up somewhere in the middle of my car under the carpeting or what not. This is because the ECU for the XT6 is in the trunk. They had to get extra wiring to connect the AFC on my dash and the ECU in the trunk. That's some long wiring. The shop I go to is 2hrs away from me......one way and they had problems finding it themselves...even with the shop service manual.

A-Train,
I have no idea if those injector will work or not. This all is new territory to me. People in in 'XT6-Land' don't even have intakes on their cars for mods, let alone upgraded fuel injectors so I've been watching you 1.8'ers for feedback.
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:56 PM   #17
Tensecgn
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Tony (Tensecgn)

Are you running lean throughout your rpm range (at WOT) or are you just runing lean between certain rpms? I'm just wondering if it's between 5k-6krpm.

I'm just trying to be clear on it since you said the problem occurs at 0-2psi. Is 2psi the max boost you are running now or is the car running lean between 0-2psi and you have a higher max boost? Thanks!

If you drive the car normal and just gently push on the gas pedal the car will go.But if you from a stand still romp the gas pedal the car goes into a very lean sputter,bog ect.The a/f gauge goes to lean.We have changed every sensor on this motor and it doesn`t change where the bog happens.I think next will try a ecu..
Keep the info coming.
Tony
P.S. the max boost we have tryed from a rolling is 10 psi.
When it does not bog this thing booggies.
Tony
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:57 PM   #18
Tensecgn
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For those who need the wiring info go to the apexi web site and follew the wiring info.I can get more in detail tomorrow.
Tony
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Old 05-21-2002, 10:38 PM   #19
Scoobie Steve
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Assuming your ecu is a one plug then you will need to cut wire #5, this is the signal wire for MAF. if your ecu has three plugs(older 1.8l do) its the same wire #5 on the right most plug. I have it marked as a white wire but i am not 100% sure on that
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Old 05-21-2002, 11:01 PM   #20
wac
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Quote:
If you drive the car normal and just gently push on the gas pedal the car will go.But if you from a stand still romp the gas pedal the car goes into a very lean sputter,bog ect.The a/f gauge goes to lean.We have changed every sensor on this motor and it doesn`t change where the bog happens.I think next will try a ecu..
Keep the info coming.
Tony
P.S. the max boost we have tryed from a rolling is 10 psi.
When it does not bog this thing booggies.
Tony,

To add another twist to the crowd...

I have a 2.2L turbo with 390 cc injectors, RRFPR, and S-AFC (along with big-time fuel reduction numbers), and a mystery 2.5L ECU donated by a fellow NESIC member. I have the same bogging symptoms as you do, but it only happens during cold start when the ECU is forced to run completely open-loop. I have the same lean AFR readings until the car gets going. Once everything gets up to temperature, it goes away. If I put back the original 220 cc injectors back in and reset the S-AFC to zero, the problem also disappears.

I have sparse evidence that the ECU uses a different enrichment routine before the coolant reaches operating temperature, and the bogging could be a result of simply running too rich and misfiring rather than too lean (and misfiring). I cannot fully explain why the AFR reads lean, but perhaps if I understood exactly how O2 sensors worked, I may have a clue. I have done searches for this behaviour on other tuner websites, and have seen this referred to as tip-in enrichment (there's also ignition timing involved), but I am definitely new to this part of the game.

If it is truly a problem with the factory fuel maps, I believe the only ways out of this is to try a different ECU, or use a standalone ECU such as a basic model Haltech or Link.

Hope this helps,

-WaC
Wayne
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:08 AM   #21
Graham
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Quote:
Assuming your ecu is a one plug then you will need to cut wire #5, this is the signal wire for MAF. if your ecu has three plugs(older 1.8l do) its the same wire #5 on the right most plug. I have it marked as a white wire but i am not 100% sure on that

Steve, thanks for the pinout man. This is for the 1.8L ECU correct?

The ECU we are dealing with is a one plug unit, so I think this should do it. Just curious, but did you hook up a S-AFC to a 1.8L ECU or are you just being a nice guy and helping out?

We'll try that wire and see if we can get it to work.


Graham
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Old 05-22-2002, 03:31 PM   #22
Scoobie Steve
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Ya the pin out was for a 96 2.2l but it has notes for 1.8l differences. So far every ecu i have came across has the MAF signal wire at pin #5. I installed a SAFC in my 2.2l and an old 93 1.8l
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:32 PM   #23
Graham
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Alright thanks Steve, we'll try and see if we can get it up and running with these new settings.


Graham
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:33 PM   #24
Kevin Thomas
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Default SAFC Setup

Setting up your SAFC, what Sensor Calc and Sensor Numbers are you guys using on your 1.8ltrs?
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Old 05-22-2002, 08:24 PM   #25
Graham
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Hmm, haven't figured that out yet, anyone care to share their S-AFC setup settings?

Graham
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