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Old 04-13-2011, 01:02 AM   #276
Moore Performance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sipset View Post
videos?
We shot a vid the other day on the dyno and we're doing a bit of editing b/c the entire length of video is pretty long. I'll also try to get a few in car vids tomorrow with sound on the highway, around town, etc.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:05 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobieBlue2.5 View Post
I was under the impression that this header was developed for '05 - previous models.. due to the different(tricky) exhaust routing and CAT placement on the 06'-07' model. I own an '06 2.5i. Do you offer a header/back-cat for the 2.5i with the afore mentioned "simple" (no fabricating/removing or relocating cat) installation?

Please forgive me if this has already been covered. I'm new to Subaru and am a noob as far as technical knowledge goes.
Thanks.
We're doing some work on an 07 2.5i this weekend so we'll take a better look at the fitment, etc but with our header/catpipe section eliminating the stock connection points we feel it should fit other models as well. We'll let you know this weekend!
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:09 AM   #278
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141 miles on the car and the sound is great, it runs well and NO cel's!!! With both O2 sensors in place and running a catless race pipe behind the header, we're pleased to see no check engine lights lit up on the dash. Stock baseline testing coming this week, then we'll have two graphs to overlay with hp, tq and AFR data. We excited to see the real potential of this setup with a proper tune, custom air intake, and a number of simple maintenance items to help this car run it's best. Right now it's bone stock right down the air filters except for the exhaust setup and it runs very well. More info to come!

Last edited by Moore Performance; 04-13-2011 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:12 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
141 miles on the car and the sound is great, it runs well and NO cel's!!! With both O2 sensors in place and running a catless race pipe behind the header, we're please to see no check engine lights lit up on the dash. Stock baseline testing coming this week then we'll have two graphs to overlay with hp, tq and AFR data.
Heh, working with the old cars is so nice. The ECUs are so easy to please. It sucks the new ones are so much more picky.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:14 AM   #280
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CELs don't exactly show up right away, but I can't see the cat efficiency code not popping up when running the car catless.

I think a better question might be will you guys offer coatings for the header? This tends to be the main issue when transitioning to aftermarket headers. They simply lose too much heat before the reach the cat(s).
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:18 AM   #281
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Even the best coating on the market (Swaintech White Lightning) doesn't hold enough heat in to avoid CELs on the 05+ cars.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:19 AM   #282
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Heh, working with the old cars is so nice. The ECUs are so easy to please. It sucks the new ones are so much more picky.
We look forward to that ecu challenge real soon and we think we have a good recipe for keeping the cel's from coming on, but you never know! A lot of the SCCA Solo classes like STX and some others demand no cel's for competition and they can't be "turned off" with the ecu, so some crafty work must be done to keep the light off the dash without cheating. We'll work it, but one step at a time.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:26 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
CELs don't exactly show up right away, but I can't see the cat efficiency code not popping up when running the car catless.

I think a better question might be will you guys offer coatings for the header? This tends to be the main issue when transitioning to aftermarket headers. They simply lose too much heat before the reach the cat(s).
That's very true and we've been trying to drive the car on the highway as much as possible at a steady pace to see if the car will throw a cel and so far it has not..... Could it happen anytime, sure it can, but as of now it's good to go.

We work with a local, high end coating company that provides the military with some of their high temp ceramic coatings and a few of the products they have available are identical to products used by Harley Davidson and Vance & Hines on their aftermarket exhaust components. There are many options available and the only way to find out if a coating will help is to test it out and see what happens!
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:27 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Even the best coating on the market (Swaintech White Lightning) doesn't hold enough heat in to avoid CELs on the 05+ cars.
I'm very curious to try this setup on an 05+ car to see what happens. I guess that's where the real cel battle will begin.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:37 AM   #285
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There's several major problems with getting a new ECU to think everything is OK. This is just a quick, off-the-cuff summary but the final conclusion is that you actually do have to have a real, working, probably OEM cat in place.

1) Temperature. Both O2 sensors and the cat matrices themselves are sensitive to temperature. Raising or lowering the temperature at either sensor will alter the response curve of the sensor. You can find graphs of this online if you dig hard enough. The long and short of it is that you have to keep the same sensor temperature or you can't avoid a CEL. Temperature also affects the function of the cat. Hotter or colder and than the design spec and the cat will do more or less catalyzing. Even worse, the cat has a different time-domain response at different temperatures and the ECU DOES look at the time domain response of the cat as part of the P0420 DTC's test as well as a fuel trim input.

2) Heat. Yes, this is different than #1. The heat energy input to the system is important as well. Think of this, roughly, as temperature times flow rate. If you push the same temperature of exhaust gasses through with a higher flow velocity (because your header is flowing better in order to make more power) the heat input to the sensors and the cats is different. This will affect the system in a way the ECU will notice.

3) Flow velocity. This one goes back to the time-domain response of the system. Changing the flow velocity will change the amount of lag in the cat. The ECU will notice this.

There are several more like this, but those are the big 3 that are a problem because you HAVE to screw them up in order to make more power.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:19 AM   #286
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I agree with Williaty as I have done my own research and concluded similarly.

However MoorePerformance keep in mind on my 08 Legacy 2.5i the rear sensor has been moved about 3 feet to down stream of the secondary stock cat and no MILs after 3K miles of mixed driving(highway and city). Also nothing is coated it is the stock mid pipe that I tapped and installed a O2 bung next to the stock OEM cat.

I think the 06-07 will present different challenges than 08-09 and 10+. I my trials cat composition and proximity are the fix. I did keep the AFR sensor near the stock location in my modified setup.


Now when I had a Borla UEL setup the cat was slightly further back and both sensors were back there with it (the cat had two bungs) I got CELS after 50 miles.


Coating a header is good for ambient temps and slight improvements in exit flow velocities but on a N/A with stock cams (or even 2000 grinds) I don't see coefficient of friction being an issue.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:13 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance

We're doing some work on an 07 2.5i this weekend so we'll take a better look at the fitment, etc but with our header/catpipe section eliminating the stock connection points we feel it should fit other models as well. We'll let you know this weekend!
Awesome, can't wait to hear the results!

...sorry to disrupt the flow of technical discussion. I wish I knew more about the technical aspects, glad there are people who know more than I here. I appreciate the knowledge passed around on here, I study some of these threads more than my schoolwork haha.

Last edited by ScoobieBlue2.5; 04-13-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:47 PM   #288
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Subscribed - been really interested in a header that is both good for sound/performance for us NA'ers
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Old 04-13-2011, 10:40 PM   #289
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Where da' videoz??
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:59 AM   #290
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Where da' videoz??
^ +1 for vids/audio
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:07 PM   #291
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Im waiting, my OEM exhaust is rattling and has some sign of leaking, my car is a 98' LGT 2.5

Last edited by GuamSTI; 04-15-2011 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:20 AM   #292
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^ +1 for vids/audio
Our video person still hasn't sent them back to me I'll check with him again tomorrow!
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:34 PM   #293
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Very interesting thread!!!! Going to have to follow this one!
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #294
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Here is the video of my car with the Moore Peformance UEL NA header on it. There is some background noise (dyno) but you can get a pretty decent listen to the header. There will be more dedicated videos of header, but this is better than nothing. Enjoy!

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Old 04-18-2011, 11:04 AM   #295
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Any numbers?
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:04 PM   #296
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Header sounds good. Nice and throaty, not super ricey. It kind of sounds like the newer generation "UEL" headers that are only slightly unequal length, so they give off more of a flutter than a rumble.

Id be very interested if Moore got into the 08+ market. Can't wait to see the numbers.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:53 PM   #297
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Any numbers?
We didn't have the baseline numbers we were looking for before the exhaust was put on, so it's back off and a stock exhaust is back on for a good baseline comparison. As soon as we have both, we'll post up the graph! I will say, that a few other 2.5 liter NA cars ran that day/week and this setup makes a lot more hp and tq than the other 2.5's in both stock and modified form. I'll post up more info this week.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:55 PM   #298
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Also, we installed just our catback on an 07 2.5i satuday (it fit perfectly) and it's going back on the dyno friday morning, so we should have back to back data for that car as well.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:22 PM   #299
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I wouldn't expect too much hp gains from a catback on a newer 2.5i but I would love to hear how it sounds! (in comparison to the few other out there that I have heard like Avo and Tsudo)
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:36 PM   #300
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I'd love to do a comparison vs my OBX headers on my high compression hybrid...
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