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Old 12-28-2009, 09:05 AM   #26
GEE-OTTO
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You should also make it a point to reach out to other forums besides this one to gather N/A Subaru owner input don't let one page of opinion drive your whole build either EL or UEL in nature make sure before you start R&D it will represent the demand.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:02 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
In a word: DON'T.

The only thing you can do is to beat eBay to the bottom of the market. The Borla knock offs are all that's needed. They fit well enough, they last well enough, they sound the way everyone wants them to sound. The only thing you can bring to the party on a UEL header is a lower price.
I can't agree with these comments the Borla's dont fit 08-10 imprezas properly and they have fitment issues with Most 06 and newer Impreza's and 06-09 Legacies. From what I can tell the lower engine mounts are designed differently in the 08+ models and the flanges do not clear them properly ive have to grind them down on THREE separate installs (2 Impreza's 1 Legacy).

The comments about ignoring the guys who choose the UEL just isn't right. You cant rule out a larger group of people than yourself (the El crowd) b/c of a power gain or loss that is virtually nonexistent. For that matter your stock EL is more than sufficient so why waste money on a aftermarket EL if you are stock like 99 percent of the N/A owners?

That would be like not making BOV VTA and only making FULL RECIRC valves b/c of a sound only attribute. Neither really are needed even for mildly modified turbo engines and neither provide a boost in power BUT the demand BOV VTA is just as high as a 50/50 or Full recirc. You don't see those companies completely ignoring the BOV VTA crowd do you? They just make the product according to demand and trends.


The best example for Moore Performance to observe is to scan the NA for sale ads on the various sites look how quickly UEL listing are snatched up and also look to see how quickly and how much interest each one garners. Then look at a EL listing never much interest and they tend to be for sale for a LONG time eventually giving way to a deep price cut just to offload them.

Again not arguing performance here b/c there are lots of products for F/I and N/A that do not deliver on that aspect. If you want to fully take advantage of a void in the market then UEL has to be considered. But ultimately cost is the dictator and quality is next in line. The Borla reps are actually good quality (thick flanges, good materials) pieces and their prices are unbeatable but that only applies to the pre 2006 crowd we (06+) have to factor in converter relocation, wire extension, fabrication etc. Talk to a EL or a UEL guy/gal both problems are present and a annoyance.

This is why you see guys like myself and J. Chow hacking up Turbo manifolds and Stock EL manifolds and using Borla reps b/c WE DON'T HAVE A BOLT ON SOLUTION EL or UEL in nature.

Last edited by GEE-OTTO; 12-28-2009 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:21 PM   #28
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very intrested in seeing something come of this.
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:33 PM   #29
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+1 for 08+ compatible mods!
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Debevemos View Post
+1 for 08+ compatible mods!
+10 man we need this we need something
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:59 PM   #31
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I need a header that:

1) Provides similar or better gains than the Cobb/Brullen/OBX or even the TWE headers.
2) Retains factory cat placement (for the older 2000 - 2005 layout).
3) Reasonably affordable (i.e. less than the $1000 TWEs).
4) No CELs
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recnelis View Post
I need a header that:

1) Provides similar or better gains than the Cobb/Brullen/OBX or even the TWE headers.
2) Retains factory cat placement (for the older 2000 - 2005 layout).
3) Reasonably affordable (i.e. less than the $1000 TWEs).
4) No CELs

Very simple list of wants, but right on target to what I'm thinking about.....

Because everyone has come up with alot of information for me to review, I'm honestly trying to figure out the best avenue to begin. I have more research to do, but this is a good start.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 2.5i View Post
Moore, seems like the overall problem is price. If you can bring the price down to 3-400. I know the obx and borla had problems cracking will yours have the same problems? Would you be willing to make a equal length header set up, and even a set of headers for the 06 and up imprezas?

-Les
Price is always an issue when trying to build a high end product and my header should not have the same cracking issues as the others and I will definitely test the prototypes on street cars and cars that are raced before it will be released. The 06+ fitment is definitely a thought....
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
In addition to matt's thinking, you could offer a SS and mild version of both. same jig, same bends, no extra tooling just different material.

One thing I would have paid for if it existed was a header heat shield, much like the factory one, to help heat retention AND insulate that annoying seweing machine sound of the valvetrain that virtually all aftermarket headers will allow.

If the factory SS exhaust manifold used one, a thinner aftermarket header, (especially one with longer primaries) would need one to maintain the heat that the factory setup called for.

If do have available to me, 304 SS, mild steel and also titanium, as well as varying thicknesses of piping that could be selected for heat retention as well as sound suppression.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:08 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
The only thing I don't like about an axleback is that you can buy any muffler you want, walk into any exhaust shop, and have one fabricated from scratch for the same or cheaper...short maybe some of the eBay mass-marketed ones that are simply super dirt cheap. Headers are things that are not easy to fabricate. The rest of the exhaust is relatively easy for a welder at a shop.

I like the axleback idea, and I'm all for it......but the point made here is a very good one.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
Price is always an issue when trying to build a high end product and my header should not have the same cracking issues as the others and I will definitely test the prototypes on street cars and cars that are raced before it will be released.
The original Borlas definitely had problems with cracking. However, there are 0 reports of the Chinese knock-offs cracking (as far as I've ever seen).

I just don't see you being able to deliver better value to the UEL market. Even for the 06-10 guys, a set of UEL knock offs from ebay plus the RallySport Racing cat pipe is still going to be cheaper than the price point you're talking about (not to mention that the RSP pipe can either be a cat-delete or HFC and still come in under your target).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
I like the axleback idea, and I'm all for it......but the point made here is a very good one.
I agree, it's possible in theory. However, I bet there's a lot of people in the situation I'm in. 1) Frankly, I just want to bolt something on and be done with it. I'm tired of looking around to find a shop who can do this and do this well. I think you'll find a lot of people don't want to mess with fabbing parts, they just want to buy something. 2) I happen to be completely unable to find a shop within a hour's drive of here that can work in mandrel bent 2.25" stainless and do so with any skill. I've been looking for 2 years and I still haven't found a shop who's output looks any better than my stuff did the first week of my welding class. I'd buy a axleback for that reason alone.
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:19 PM   #37
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i believe that the basic demands for the 06+ market are as follows. (keep in mind it is very basic)
1) 100% bolt on. no fabrication needed/required
2) Low cost
3) High Quality
4) Performance gains preferable
5) Boxer Rumble/Burble

i am fully aware that half of those contradict each other. high quality usually equals high cost. but still =p thats what i think most people want from headers. i for one, like willaty said, want to just buy it, bolt it on, and forget about it. i will be keepin a close eye on this one =p very interested if you guys do decide to put one on the market
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
I just don't see you being able to deliver better value to the UEL market. Even for the 06-10 guys, a set of UEL knock offs from ebay plus the RallySport Racing cat pipe is still going to be cheaper than the price point you're talking about (not to mention that the RSP pipe can either be a cat-delete or HFC and still come in under your target).
No where near true! Ebay knockoffs the cheapest you'll find them for NEW and Shipped is $145. Supers587 (MS3) Track pipes start at $290 and go up. This is all for pre 06 cars mind you. Look I know exhausts ive ran every imaginable setup on a 06+ 2.5i the cheapest method was hacking up a LGT manifold and buying a new dual bung cat that still cost $200 in parts.

06+ owners CAN NOT do that for less that $300 unless you can fab it all yourself. I say you are still better off targeting the market that has no suppliers currently. 2006 and newer!

If you leave the UEL crowd out you will leave out a lot of money
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:39 AM   #39
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UEL header from ebay plus RSP Aluminized Steel Track Pipe: $320
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Stainless Track Pipe: $405
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Aluminized HFC: $400
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Stainless HFC: $485

Moore Perfomance's stated target for UEL headers alone: $600-700
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:21 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Aluminized Steel Track Pipe: $320
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Stainless Track Pipe: $405
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Aluminized HFC: $400
UEL header from ebay plus RSP Stainless HFC: $485

Moore Perfomance's stated target for UEL headers alone: $600-700
Yes but you taking into account the EXTRA PARTS and labor and you assume everyone wants to run catless this is not true most want to run catted to avoid MILs and sound tickets . Not to mention NONE of those setups are bolt on 06+ and for 08+ engine mounts and steering lines add to the cost b/c they both have to modified for proper fit or your header will have to be cut and made to fit.

Now if the end was UEL, had an integrated cat, addressed O2 wire issues, and was a BOLT-ON i would pay $600. Simply because it would take all the fabrication work out of the equation and make life simple for you and I trying to get a After market EL or UEL header
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:28 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post
Yes but you taking into account the EXTRA PARTS and labor and you assume everyone wants to run catless this is not true most want to run catted to avoid MILs and sound tickets
Jesus, did you even read that post at all? Half the options were catless, half the options had cats. There's no additional parts. The RSP pipes bolt directly from a 05 and older style header to an 06 and newer midpipe. You buy the header, you buy the pipe, you bolt them on, nothing needs changed other than the way the wire for the front O2 sensor runs from the harness to the pipe.

Quote:
Not to mention NONE of those setups are bolt on 06+ and for 08+ engine mounts and steering lines add to the cost b/c they both have to modified for proper fit or your header will have to be cut and made to fit.
Again, do you have any idea what you're talking about? ALL the options I just listed are direct bolt-ons for the 06+, not requiring any changes to the engine mounts, steering lines, or any of the other BS you're talking about.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:41 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post

Again, do you have any idea what you're talking about? ALL the options I just listed are direct bolt-ons for the 06+, not requiring any changes to the engine mounts, steering lines, or any of the other BS you're talking about.
Do yourself a favor buy a eBay UEL and tell me how well it "bolts-on" to a 06+ EJ253. Ive never seen the RSP pipes so that is news to me however for my setups i always have a mid pipe fabbed or fabbed the stock one.

The RSP site clearly mentions "YOU MUST RELOCATE O2 WIRES TO COMPLETE INSTALLATION" and furthermore that setup isnt for a 06+ N/A it is for a pre 06.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to exhausts, header, and the like? With a 06+ Impreza 2.5i or Legacy2.5i? This is far from timing and cams or intakes.

Last edited by GEE-OTTO; 12-29-2009 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:57 AM   #43
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On another note I understand your reasoning behind the RSP but that is a product that provides a solution to adapting a pre 05 header to a 06+ car
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:58 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post
Do yourself a favor buy a eBay UEL and tell me how well it "bolts-on" to a 06+ EJ253.
Have one sitting in the driveway, thanks. And, wonder of wonders, I have actually had a borla rep on it. Fits it just like it fits any other EJ253 so long as you have the correct plumbing following it.

Quote:
Ive never seen the RSP pipes so that is news to me however for my setups i always have a mid pipe fabbed or fabbed the stock one.
See that bit up there about "correct plumbing"? The RSP pipe is the "correct plumbing" you need. (No, I didn't use the RSP because it didn't exist when I put the 06 through the header experiment).

Quote:
The RSP site clearly mentions "YOU MUST RELOCATE O2 WIRES TO COMPLETE INSTALLATION"
Did you not see where I wrote that the front O2 sensor wiring was the only thing that had to be changed? Did you read the instructions for the change on their site? It's trivial.

Quote:
furthermore that setup isnt for a 06+ N/A
Yes, it is, read their web page. Also confirmed with them via email.

Quote:
in addition to all that it doesnt mate to the axleback the flanges are totally different. (donought vs flat )
Do you seriously think that a cat pipe bolts directly to the axleback? What do you think goes between them, dryer tubing?

The upstream side of the RSP pipes bolt to a 05 and older style headers (since there's so many available options). The downstream side of the RSP pips bolt to the stock 06+ midpipe.

Quote:
This is far from timing and cams or intakes.
You're right, compared to the stuff I do on a daily basis, this is child's play.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:35 PM   #45
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I think the people posting to this thread are missing one very important thing, not everyone shops soley on price. I am one of those people who plunked down over a grand for a set of Cobb EL headers with HFC. Twice in fact. I've still got both sets and will never sell them because they aren't replaceable. People can buy as many cheap OBX knockoffs they want, but history has shown that they don't last and stay together. They break, just like the Borlas and Borla-reps always have. I don't know how many Borlas I've seen break over the years; and I mean personally have seen break, not just read about on the internet. And don't even get me started on cheap ceramic high flow cats. If you pay $80 for a cat don't have any expectations that that is anything more than a 2 year part. It's just reality.

There's something to be said for quality and there are people who will pay for it. There's no way to realistically compete with OBX and Borla on price because they make their stuff in such ridiculous volumes that they have economies of scale that a small craftmade exhaust builder will NEVER be able to match and stay in business. I don't think Moore should even consider trying to be at the price of what's already out there. Make a higher quality product and sell it for more is my 2 cents.
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Old 12-29-2009, 08:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Have one sitting in the driveway, thanks. And, wonder of wonders, I have actually had a borla rep on it. Fits it just like it fits any other EJ253 so long as you have the correct plumbing following it.


See that bit up there about "correct plumbing"? The RSP pipe is the "correct plumbing" you need. (No, I didn't use the RSP because it didn't exist when I put the 06 through the header experiment).


Did you not see where I wrote that the front O2 sensor wiring was the only thing that had to be changed? Did you read the instructions for the change on their site? It's trivial.


Yes, it is, read their web page. Also confirmed with them via email.


Do you seriously think that a cat pipe bolts directly to the axleback? What do you think goes between them, dryer tubing?

The upstream side of the RSP pipes bolt to a 05 and older style headers (since there's so many available options). The downstream side of the RSP pips bolt to the stock 06+ midpipe.


You're right, compared to the stuff I do on a daily basis, this is child's play.

I really and truly forgot we were talking about Imprezas and not Legacies I kept saying to myself WTF are you talking about we have a solid mid/Y pipe that splits to two mufflers. I get your point. We share cat pipes but until 08 imprezas were single exhaust so nothing past that point and for a legacy that RSP pipe would connect the header to the Y pipe but for you it is the mid no need for all the posting
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:13 PM   #47
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I def agree with williaty on the need for an axleback alternative other than stromung. They make great stuff.

I had 2 stromung setups already (don't ask why) and my biggest gripe with them was

#1 price
#2 the fact that they sound kinda like crap until they warm up.

I would pull into my local suby meets sounding deep and grumbly, pull away sounding all retarded like the exhaust wanted to sound good but wasn't ready. I assume it's the glass pack? Both my single tip and dual tip did the same thing. Local buddies even noticed it.

If you could make a nice sounding axleback that was less expensive and could deal with the NA's stronger exhaust flow once UEL's are on, that would be great. Note I did not have the stromung on with UEL's.

I currently have a turboxs standard axleback (non fart can version) and she really pulses with the UEL's headers. It's like a kid with dual bass drums. It's like the flow is too strong for the axleback. And I have a resonator on, no cats though.

Also, no one yet has come up with what I would call a shorty UEL header, that would allow all us 06/07 2.5i owners to keep our stock catpipe and centerpipe, any axleback would work.

There are so many variables and options

I do think one thing though. For the most part the 06/07 2.5i owners have nothing yet truely designed exhuast wise for our cars. Sure we can put on UEL's and get trackpipes/HFC's and such. But they were designed for 05 and earlier cars.

We can't buy one thing without the other right now, etc.

Either way, I look forward to updates and whatever it is you may decide to do.

note: my ebay uel's came from a fellow local member, he had a bitch of a time getting them on and so did I. I had to yank and use a bar to get one of the flanges to line up with the studs. Took quite a bit of work and quite a bit of time but we finally got them on.

Last edited by kero; 12-29-2009 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:05 PM   #48
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Again, thanks for all the feedback and information and I'm working with a few local people to hopefully take all that I'm finding on multiple forums, online, phone calles, etc and put it to work for you guys. I'll keep you posted and i'm looking into both the header and axleback sections for multiple years.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:35 PM   #49
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^^ Sounds good, keep us up to date, if you need a tester for any parts PM me
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:02 PM   #50
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One other question....are you guys mainly interested in a catback section for the 07 an older impreza models?
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