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Old 12-30-2009, 08:02 PM   #51
Moore Performance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kero View Post
^^ Sounds good, keep us up to date, if you need a tester for any parts PM me
I will and thanks for the offer.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:48 PM   #52
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I think it would be cool if you could make a 2nd gen legacy 2.25'' catback exhaust
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:54 PM   #53
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Not catback. Just axleback. And for an 00-05. For one thing, there's more of those than there are of the 06+ and also the 06+ share axleback fitment with the turbo cars, meaning there's already a huge variety of axlebacks available that fit the 06+. It's the 00-05 guys that the choices of Stromung or Stromung

A fair number of us already have aftermarket midpipes due to the OEM ones rusting and cracking at the resonator. So while you may as well make a midpipe (just to provide an alternative to Stromung), it's important that you offer it as axleback-only and not solely as a complete catback.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:04 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Not catback. Just axleback. And for an 00-05. For one thing, there's more of those than there are of the 06+ and also the 06+ share axleback fitment with the turbo cars, meaning there's already a huge variety of axlebacks available that fit the 06+. It's the 00-05 guys that the choices of Stromung or Stromung

A fair number of us already have aftermarket midpipes due to the OEM ones rusting and cracking at the resonator. So while you may as well make a midpipe (just to provide an alternative to Stromung), it's important that you offer it as axleback-only and not solely as a complete catback.
agreed that def makes most sense stomung is so dam pricey
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:05 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
For one thing, there's more of those than there are of the 06+ and also the 06+ share axleback fitment with the turbo cars, meaning there's already a huge variety of axlebacks available that fit the 06+
I love how my Prodrive oval tip just bolts right on my '06 2.5i midpipe
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semaj View Post
I love how my Prodrive oval tip just bolts right on my '06 2.5i midpipe
Go home, you!

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Old 12-31-2009, 01:13 AM   #57
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+100 for the separate axleback and midpipe. I'm looking for a reliable midpipe that won't cost me nearly $200.

I went to an exhaust shop today that quoted me $100 to only fabricate a flange and hang my axleback! What a ripoff (glad I asked the cost first)!
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:48 AM   #58
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axle back only option would require different designs for the sedan and hatch would it not? I like the idea of OPTIONS. and packages etc. plus the idea of bolt on is very appealing to me.

Moore performance, keep us posted. let me know if you need a canuck tester lol. good luck.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semaj View Post
I love how my Prodrive oval tip just bolts right on my '06 2.5i midpipe
Same with my 07 2.5i wagon and the turbo xs axleback I have, despite it being a little bit bass drummy at times.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:35 PM   #60
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Only for the 08+
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:53 AM   #61
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An alternative to the TWE EL Header would be appreciated. With proven performance gains. I currently have an old Cobb EL Header.

What years were you thinking of doing this for?
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Not catback. Just axleback. And for an 00-05. For one thing, there's more of those than there are of the 06+ and also the 06+ share axleback fitment with the turbo cars, meaning there's already a huge variety of axlebacks available that fit the 06+. It's the 00-05 guys that the choices of Stromung or Stromung

A fair number of us already have aftermarket midpipes due to the OEM ones rusting and cracking at the resonator. So while you may as well make a midpipe (just to provide an alternative to Stromung), it's important that you offer it as axleback-only and not solely as a complete catback.
I'm working on the cost, and some build ideas right now. I'll get back to you guys with some more concrete info in the next few days for the 00-05 axleback. Btw, happy new year!!
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:36 PM   #63
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I wouldn't mind seeing a couple different designs, say one geared for efficiency and gas mileage, one for sport that we see in the Cobb and TWE designs (look very different but are basically the same design actually), and one for a modified car.

The differences would be runner diameter and runner length as well as the collector diameter and length. An efficient design would be using a 1.5" pipe with a long runner design more towards 50", and it would mate to a smaller collector, say 2" with a longer collector length. It improves the plumbing versus stock and gears specifically for low and midrange use. The sport is what we see in the Cobb and TWE designs, 1.625" primaries with runner lengths of about 40" with a 2.25" collector. A performance design would step up the primaries one further to 1.75", run a little shorter and more towards 30" in length, and collect into a 2.5" collector. This would be like TWE's high flow version.

www.headerdesign.com has some good info and design numbers that are pretty spot on for this stuff.

I'm not particularly a fan of UEL headers simply because of the tuning effect they do provide. Not everyone chooses function over sound though. A few ft-lb here or there just isn't a big deal for some folks. However, sometimes it's a bit more then that. It may actually be 20 ft-lb or more some places simply by design, especially with supporting hardware and tuning. It's not always the peak numbers but rather improving volumetric efficiency over more of the power band or more so over the area you care about. I've seen actual torque gains of 40 ft-lb in some places with my own car and a much broader power band. It's not soley from a header, but the header is one part of the system that can either aid or hinder the end goal.

Cost is a big factor, and I'm not sure how you guys intend to approach this. Business is money and profit is the end goal always. However, I'm curious how you intend to keep costs low while still providing a competitive and desirable product. I don't know what kind of labor hours will eventually end up in this thing. I think it may come down to just getting a good design, keeping the number of bends low, the weld count low, and just trying to get something that's clean and works great in the simplest and most functional form. Pay careful attention to the collector too. I'm not sure if you guys intend to work with a prefabbed product or will attempt to fabricate your own. Smooth flow is important, so keep the flow smooth and the angles between the primaries and the collector low. HP can be made or lost with the collector.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:51 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semaj View Post
I love how my Prodrive oval tip just bolts right on my '06 2.5i midpipe
+1
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:27 PM   #65
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I love how my Prodrive oval tip just bolts right on my '06 2.5i midpipe

Prodrive oval FTW!!!
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:49 AM   #66
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I bought my UEL replicas (shipped), RSP aluminized HFC (shipped), re-routed my O2 wires and had a Cat-back fabbed up for under $700. To buy a UEL header for $700 would NEVER happen. If you wanna join the $700 price mark, go EL, if you wanna join the UEL club, go lower than Borlas ($350). The replicas on mine fit perfectly and I havent had any issues. If you came out with a design that didnt require re-routing the O2 sensors than that would be something different, but honestly, re-routing them took about 2 minutes. If you wanna make money, IMO, go UEL. There has been more pointless UEL threads on NASIOC than I can count. Good luck!
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:42 PM   #67
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Ok...I know this thread started as a header thread, but after some homework I really think another axleback option is necessary for the 00-05 N/A cars. My main question is what pipe diameter do you prefer? I can do anything, including 3", and the muffler cores can be custom ordered allowing a change in the overall sound and loudness of the system. I've watched 2.5 N/A cars run with every diameter of catback, or custom catback, avaialable on the dyno and they all have their strengths/weaknesses but what are you guys looking for?? As of now here's what I'm looking at.

- pricing around $375 for the axleback
-every inch of the sytems would be made of 100% 304 SS
- lifetime warranty on the entire system
- mutiple exhaust tips and tip finishes (black chrome, etc)
- multiple muffler core options
- 3/8" cnc cut 304 SS flange that will mate up to the factory midpipe location

Thats it for now, so let me know what you think!
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:58 PM   #68
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torque and lowend gains
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:08 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
My main question is what pipe diameter do you prefer?
So long as it's mandrel bent, 2.25" or 2". 2.25" is the idealized diameter for the volume of exhaust gasses our engines produce at the exhaust port. However, by the time the exhaust gasses reach the back of the car, they've shed enough heat out of the header, cats/track pipe, and mid-pipe that the exhaust volume is significantly reduced, removing the need for a larger pipe. Either way, doesn't really matter which size you pick.

3", though, is just a waste of money.

Quote:
- pricing around $375 for the axleback
I have a feeling you might run into problems with that. You're at Stromung money there (which does make sense, as they're you're competition) and I've heard a number of people complain about the cost of Stromung. You'll get a *few* people who won't mind paying any amount of money for the convenience of a well-made, bolt-on solution. However, I think you'll find most of your market is people like me who don't mind paying somewhat more for quality but do have limits.

At $375, I can buy 3 Magnaflow or Borla mufflers and pay to have them made of mild steel (since the stumbling block is finding someone to work in stainless) 3 times for that amount of money. 3 more mufflers probably will last longer than I'll go before destroying the unibody of the car

At, say, $250, that's enough for me to say "I don't care that it costs twice as much, it's easy and well made!"

Quote:
-every inch of the sytems would be made of 100% 304 SS
- lifetime warranty on the entire system
- 3/8" cnc cut 304 SS flange that will mate up to the factory midpipe location
All of that sounds awesome.

Welcome to the market, glad to have you!
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:11 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
Ok...I know this thread started as a header thread, but after some homework I really think another axleback option is necessary for the 00-05 N/A cars. My main question is what pipe diameter do you prefer? I can do anything, including 3", and the muffler cores can be custom ordered allowing a change in the overall sound and loudness of the system. I've watched 2.5 N/A cars run with every diameter of catback, or custom catback, avaialable on the dyno and they all have their strengths/weaknesses but what are you guys looking for?? As of now here's what I'm looking at.

- pricing around $375 for the axleback
-every inch of the sytems would be made of 100% 304 SS
- lifetime warranty on the entire system
- mutiple exhaust tips and tip finishes (black chrome, etc)
- multiple muffler core options
- 3/8" cnc cut 304 SS flange that will mate up to the factory midpipe location

Thats it for now, so let me know what you think!
Please don't discount 06/07 NA owners as even though we can throw pretty much any axleback on our cars, most of them are not designed for the stronger exhaust flow that our NA's have. I have heard plenty of NA impreza's with turbo designed exhaust and they sound like crappola.

Take for instance the turboxs standard axleback I have, bolted up in 2 seconds, but she bangs like a bass drum with the UEL's. It would be nice to have another option other than stromung even for us.

I still think 3" in general is to large of piping for NA's engines, 2.5" and or 2.25" is a nice diameter.

I am interested though in an option for ppl with UEL's and trackpipes that need a baffled exhaust to help keep the exhaust tone in check.

Like I said earlier there are tons of options out there but the more you offer the more business you might get.

Oh I agree with williaty on the price point, $375 is def in stromung range but something in the mid $200's could get you crap loads of business. Mid $200's is easier for ppl on tight budgets to come up vs $375, etc.

Just don't forget us 2.5i owners, I would hate to see something new and great come out that we couldn't enjoy.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:10 AM   #71
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You might want to decide what you're building this exhaust system for.

Sound?

Performance?

Economy?

Would you expect most customers of whatever setup you have to be running a bone stock engine? Or would you expect the customers to have some engine modifications? Is there a design compromise one way or the other?

A small add on williaty's post, the 2.5L SOHC NA as bench flow tested by Cobb supported roughly 240 cfm of airflow This is what runs through the throttle body and intake manifold and through the head and stock cam design. It is fitting that the exhaust is geared for a similar flow level. A rough gauge commonly used is 115cfm per square inch of pipe area. This correlates to a 1 5/8" pipe. This assumes a smooth, straight pipe though. Any bends in the pipe, the cat(s), and muffler will all cause restrictions, so sometimes sizing is more dependent on the supporting hardware then the pipe alone. For example, can a 2" cat support 240 cfm without restricting flow? What if it's a low cell count metal substrate cat? What about the muffler and most likely a resonator/glasspack? Would we need a 2.25" cat or muffler to support 240cfm?
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:46 PM   #72
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I would much rather spend that much money on a good performance gain than a bit of bubble from the exhaust. Don't get me wrong, i envy the bubble of the turbo models but spending that much for bubble is not imaginable for me. I would highly suggest giving us N/A folks some POWER for a good price since clearly we couldn't afford it the WRX or STi power or else we would have gotten that in the first place Just my thoughts thanks for looking out for the little people GO MOORE PERFORMANCE! Im sure we all appreciate the effort
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:48 PM   #73
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And Please Dont Forget About The Newer Motors Too!!! We Are Lacking In Options!!! Ive Got An 09 2.5i And Wish For More Upgrades!!!!!
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:50 PM   #74
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Quote:
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I would much rather spend that much money on a good performance gain than a bit of bubble from the exhaust. Don't get me wrong, i envy the bubble of the turbo models but spending that much for bubble is not imaginable for me. I would highly suggest giving us N/A folks some POWER for a good price since clearly we couldn't afford it the WRX or STi power or else we would have gotten that in the first place Just my thoughts thanks for looking out for the little people GO MOORE PERFORMANCE! Im sure we all appreciate the effort
i love you
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:55 PM   #75
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i love you

LOL
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