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Old 05-11-2010, 11:10 PM   #101
Moore Performance
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You guys make very good points and one of our guys worked with Burns Stainless on a very nice collector for an EL header designed for the 2.5 liter motor and even though we have this project on hold while we test our current EL, twin scroll turbo header, we will revisit this in the near future!
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:12 PM   #102
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As it was already said here, maybe you could consider an intake manifold as well? You'd have a monopoly over the market, and given you can bend and twist pipes the way you want, it shouldn't hurt to make one or two prototypes and see what it gives..

Other than that, keep in mind that the NA pre-DBW world is a dying (although enthusiastic and picky) breed. Conversely, given the mass market appeal of the new Impreza, quite a few of the 08+ owners are utterly clueless and willing to spend their money on anything involving a performance sticker. As a business plan, consider making cheap and shiny things for them, overprice, (imagine the $ for a header-catback-intake-manifold combo!) and then subsidy high quality product for NASIOCers
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:39 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Borla replica UEL = $200
OBX Cobb replica EL = $300

Can you compete with this? It's simply a matter of business. Do you think it's worth getting into? TWE offers a premium EL header that's very near that of the Cobb design in specs, but it's $1000 versus $300 and very few people buy them. Borla still makes their UEL header, but they also make a LOT of other products. They don't care so much if many sell or not versus the replica. I think Borla's is somewhere around $600. Then you have Hayward and Scott from the UK that also produces a high end UEL exhaust similarly priced to the TWE products at around $1000, but they don't sell in the US.

Want to do something unique for the NA market, make some intake manifolds. That's where we have zero aftermarket products in the NA market.
The borla header is about 350$
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:44 AM   #104
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Five letters.....sorry, it posted twice..

Last edited by suex; 05-13-2010 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:26 AM   #105
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I have the borla headers,they work great, fit perfect, and I have good gains, I paid 360$for them, from summit racing.....I don't know if you can beat this...but if you can, do it...the only bad thing is you cant just install them and go, you have to build a new pipe for the cat, which you would have to do anyway because it brings you up to 2.5"......like I said on the other thread, build a cat(metallic) into them, and you might have a winner, or make it an option at the very least....not everyone wants to go catless....I don't need to clean my bumper everyday..
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:44 PM   #106
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an integrated hi-flow cat that meets the midpipe in the stock location would be tops...i'd be all over an EL header with cat for around 5-6 bills.
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:58 PM   #107
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For as easy as it is to simply weld in a cat anywhere along the midpipe, I don't see integration of one into the header as a requirement.

I think the overwhelming issue here is cost. It's just that a lot of people are not willing to pay big bucks for a high quality piece. However, some will argue the value of actually having a good product especially when other options like OBX headers or Borla replicas are pretty shoddy work in order to meet costs.

How to be unique? How to be affordable? How to be profitable? These are big questions.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:36 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
For as easy as it is to simply weld in a cat anywhere along the midpipe, I don't see integration of one into the header as a requirement.
This is a crucial part for most 06+ N/A Subaru owners wanting UEL sound. And We don't want a ****ty metallic catalytic converter we want a ceramic converter why? Because we DO NOT WANT MIL's period. Yes we can put UEL and EL on our cars buy or have a cat pipe fabbed ut it is only a matter of time before P0420 comes to life. Second we need that cat in the header b/c the ECU like the readings the O2s send as it is located in the stock config. Location is as big of a problem as proper catalyst composition. The only UEL setup that will work 100% bolt on no tuning required is one with a integrated stock like converter near or exactly in the stock location.

The ecu is very unforgiving and you wouldnt think that 8 inches to the rear would be a problem but that is just enough to allow the gases ( along with the better flowing piping) to cool below the threshold of acceptable to the ECU.

IF it is made it should resemble the stock unit, which as a EL is one of the best out there, with stock location period.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:39 PM   #109
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The low temp issue is from the naked steel tubing, not the cat location. The OEM header is cast iron for a reason. Besides, all you need is a Tactrix cable to make all your CEL/emissions testing problems go away.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:13 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
The low temp issue is from the naked steel tubing, not the cat location. The OEM header is cast iron for a reason. Besides, all you need is a Tactrix cable to make all your CEL/emissions testing problems go away.
the later model exhaust manifolds (06+) are not cast. they are nice, mandrel bent stainless with crappy collectors and a healthy amount of insulation packed inside a heat shield. the insulation/heat shield must do the job of the cast iron on older OEM designs.
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:08 PM   #111
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Yes, it does.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:53 PM   #112
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I'm listening and taking notes, and there are a lot of things I must consider (above and beyond the product itself) before I can begin making a header. Production cost will be my biggest enemy, but I'm looking into it.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:40 AM   #113
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Good old cast of the Tubo design is why the WRX/LGT/STI stock unit mod works the best best on 06+ the newer stock EL desing is made from T321 Aluminized or maybe T409 but if you have ever dissected one you know they pack in a generous amount of insulation and a heat shield. All lends themselves to keeping the heat in and the cat HOT! which the ECU likes


BUT I ran this modded Stock 08 El manifold sans all that stuff and never got a CEL it was on for 10K miles before the it got mixed up with a median in a snow storm



Moore Performance this should be your design basis If you can take this basic layout and make it UEL and use Spun style OEM cat (less than $40 per cat @wholesale) you can create a jig and use any metal from T202 to T409 to T321! I bet you can get the price point under $400 with decent room for profit. The expensive part is the converter but the other materials (tubing and flanges) can be bought in bulk or if you have a CNC machine, cut in house.

The more you make in house the more profit you can structure into each header realistically you know as a commercial entity you can price the raw materials better than a domestic consumer. I feel that if you can price a good lot of spun converters (ceramic double dipped combs not the ****ty metal race cats) you can have a first production run at a price that we all will buy one hands downs and you can see a decent return on your efforts.

Yes the turbo stuff always takes precedent over the N/A crowd that is buisness but once you do revisit this idea and get something tangible to show us you will be glad you did. Plus the few N/A folks that have gotten our hands dirty experimenting ( Like myself ) can help you out a bunchive had every know setup manifold wise

Last edited by GEE-OTTO; 05-19-2010 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:28 PM   #114
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good post gee otto. I would also pay some decent penny for a true direct bolt on. I am playing with several different setups and ideas. moore performance, let me know if you'd like any info or anything I can help with. cats close to the headers to keep them nice and hot would be good. stock location for the cat too the ecu will love you.
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:47 AM   #115
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Quote:
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good post gee otto. I would also pay some decent penny for a true direct bolt on. I am playing with several different setups and ideas. moore performance, let me know if you'd like any info or anything I can help with. cats close to the headers to keep them nice and hot would be good. stock location for the cat too the ecu will love you.

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Old 06-04-2010, 12:46 AM   #116
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Everyday I watch the thread, and I'm working on trying to get the price point correct for this item.....

GEE-OTTO, thank you for the pic and that is a great design that "should" be able to work for me with a reasonable cost. I'm trying! If I were to get the price point right I would probably need to have 10 customers go in on a group buy for me to produce these. I work with Stainless Works in OH to build all my components, and my pricing usually can't compete with the cheaper products made overseas, but I'm doing my best. The good point is, the quality of my products is much better than the non USA built pieces!! After the WBM I'll more time to focus on this N/A header, but thank you for the info!
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:07 AM   #117
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Quote:
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Everyday I watch the thread, and I'm working on trying to get the price point correct for this item.....

GEE-OTTO, thank you for the pic and that is a great design that "should" be able to work for me with a reasonable cost. I'm trying! If I were to get the price point right I would probably need to have 10 customers go in on a group buy for me to produce these. I work with Stainless Works in OH to build all my components, and my pricing usually can't compete with the cheaper products made overseas, but I'm doing my best. The good point is, the quality of my products is much better than the non USA built pieces!! After the WBM I'll more time to focus on this N/A header, but thank you for the info!

Hey I support American products (tacky, cliche, I know but I do!) I also admire QUALITY like many others on this site. If you are a owner that only wants cheap non- homogeneous T series steel then eBay your car to death. The lowest price point, with built in profit, can only be achieved if you can do the build 100% in house OR you can source materials for a really good price. At that point you are selling your time which is valuable.


Your price point for the first 10 may be higher than some are willing to shell out however there is a reason people shell out big $$$ for Kmurphy's Twinscroll or Perrin's EL headers b/c owners associate it with "Quality" and they brag on how "sweet" it is.

I have bought 4 headers from ebay ALL did not fit totaling $547. I then paid to have two chopped and re-welded that was another $150 then the CELs. All total Ive wasted about $1500 on my BL with parts made for the BD and GD exhaust wise and I am not happy. Sold it all and back to square one but in the process i have learned a vast amount. As new owners emerge they should appreciate that the aftermarket is even thinking about the N/A crowd, make a good header and they will be thinking about you.
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Old 06-04-2010, 12:36 PM   #118
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Not to mention you work at SW! I saw a builder kit they put together for honda guys (probably a generic kit) it came with bends and straight tubing etc they just had to get the flanges cut.

If you in some way will be working thru or with them WOW!
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:12 PM   #119
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I have lived with my uel setup for over 6-7 months.

Setup is this: ebay UELS, trackpipe, oem centerpipe with res and turbo xs axleback (non fart can version)

I have had enough of it. The sewing machine affect is horrible. My car sounds like crap and when in traffic, ppl look at me as if my engine was about to die or drop out of the car.

I honestly and truely feel a higher quality UEL header that can negate the sewing machine affect and cel issues would be a home run!!!!!

I just picked up today a 04 wrx axleback to get off my turbo xs axleback.

I am having a crazy hard time finding the OEM 2.5i headers and trackpipe. No one locally wants to trade, even with no money exchange.

So, I am thinking to changing over the trackpipe to a catpipe for the current setup to help tone things down in conjuction with the 04 wrx axleback.

Now, if a nice correctly designed 06+ 2.5i header were to come out at an affordable price, I would consider buying those and finding the correct catpipe to work with it.

Thoughts and comments as well as the future of moore's uel product and timelines, if there are any at this point.

And sorry guys, i am normally more vocal in this thread and the others but just have been crazy busy and trying to find a way to get my system quiet and enjoyable since I don't have my oem parts anymore, ugh.
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Old 06-06-2010, 12:22 AM   #120
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The problem is that the "sewing machine effect" comes from the fact that the wall thickness is lower than the cast OEM collector and then the piping after that. Pretty much any aftermarket part made from a off-the-shelf stainless pipe is going to sound that way.

However, the rest of the crazy noises, yeah, that's cause of the design.
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:17 AM   #121
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http://www.haywardandscott.com/subar...-flow-cat.html
This is about as good as it gets, they do 2 other ones and one has a hiflow cat, those are even more pricey, if you can make a similar product for way less... I think you could give borla a run for it's money...
Everyone has made good points, it all comes down to cost, if you can't make them for less than borla does, make yours for the same price(give or take a few bux), if it will bolt up with the existing setup, your garanteed sales....

It would have saved me about 75$ when I put mine in... So yes were interested.... Let's get on with it.

Last edited by suex; 06-22-2010 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Think sponge hurt ....
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:05 AM   #122
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@kero. The OEM manifold will cost double what this might cost. It is T321SS with a full aluminum heat shield and double comb ceramic cat.

@that European manifold that is a WRX manifold so it doesn't affect us anyway

Moore wouldn't be in competition with anybody because no company makes 2006+ bolt on headers. You can't demand it be near the Borla in price bc along with the borla you have to buy other parts. If this thing costs $450 and 9 bolts on and off you are way ahead of the other options.
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:34 PM   #123
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Moore Performance,


Why dont you mock the header first as an internal build then just show up to market with a prototype to judge interest (just the one piece)? If for some odd reason you get no interest you haven't lost any money and you still have the prototype. This has to be the best way to traverse this issue.

For instance when NTC was thinking about testing a Throttle controller for BL/BP Legacies. They made ONE and I tested it for a month then they came to the forums with my real world knowledge it is failed they only had one at that point but it was a hit so they order more.

Even though they didn't have a Legacy it was till possible and if you dont have a 06+ Impreza/Legacy 2.5i. If i could I would make one show it off see how that does then proceed
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:31 AM   #124
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You guys bring up MANY good points and I might just do what we did for our most recent twin scroll setup...... We built a few handmade prototypes, did some testing and then I worked with Stainless Works to build the most gorgeous EL header we've ever seen! The quality and repeatability that Stainless Works brings to the table is priceless and I might just do the N/A header the same way. My schedule as of now puts the Wicked Big Meet in line next, my brother's wedding after that and then a few parts modifications for our new TS kit. Obviously the wedding is unrelated to the automotive aspect of my life, but it still sucks time away from new projects. After all of that fun, we can begin building a header for the N/A cars. I'll look into the pic you posted above for a guide and we'll see what we can come up with.
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:24 AM   #125
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That looks dreamy. A cat could be added after the L/R pipes come together. If you kept the header tucked up the Outback guys could finaly have a header that would allows us to no run spacers between the skip plates and the crosmember or have funny cutouts for the borla type headers.
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