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Old 06-20-2010, 07:36 PM   #151
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Ryan has been busy with his brother's wedding, so I'll answer a few of these questions for him (I work with him on some of the MP products):

Quote:
@Moore Performance

Do you use the tabs to ensure the UP doesnt slip away from the collector? Even though it would require a lot of movement to do so? how well does that joint prevent leaks
Tie bars are included at the slip fits. The joints are just safety-wired on the display piece, but proper hardware/bars are included in every MP header kit. The joint--at least on the turbo header--prevents leaks very well. The turbo header uses true double-slip connectors; overkill on an n/a app, so it's up in the air if it will be included or not.

Quote:
nice pipes. eagerly awaiting headers...will you be offering coating options
Coating will be an option. Military-quality ceramic coatings in a variety of colors. We like to run a gold piston coating as a base barrier, then coat over that for color changes/additional durability, etc.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:25 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black07STiGuy View Post
so still lookin for a UEL header for the wife's Leg SE. Is there anything out yet or should I just fab an older header to fit?

PM me if someone knows something I don't

Wait for who knows how long or better yet go ahead and fab one
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:32 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suex View Post
http://www.haywardandscott.com/subar...-flow-cat.html

Hmmmmmm...... I'll bet they don't actually cost that much to make, even with the cat.
Since you seem to have no idea of what a N/A EJ253 manifold looks likes lets plays pictures:
Turbo


Non Turbo



Before you get bold and PM again please study the photos and stop listening to that Brit that is telling you they bolted a WRX manifold to their car and made it fit w/o any modifications to the cat pipe it is a LIE
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:03 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post
Since you seem to have no idea of what a N/A EJ253 manifold looks likes lets plays pictures:
Turbo


Non Turbo



Before you get bold and PM again please study the photos and stop listening to that Brit that is telling you they bolted a WRX manifold to their car and made it fit w/o any modifications to the cat pipe it is a LIE
http://www.haywardandscott.com/subar...-flow-cat.html

Huh...?
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:16 AM   #155
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http://www.haywardandscott.com/subar...-flow-cat.html

He was German actually.....

..... Nomex suit on....

Last edited by suex; 06-22-2010 at 04:34 AM. Reason: Irrelivent
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:38 AM   #156
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http://www.techworkseng.com/Products...ce_Exhaust.htm

Sexy... Wrong type, stupid expensive... But sexy...
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:52 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suex View Post
http://www.techworkseng.com/Products...ce_Exhaust.htm

Sexy... Wrong type, stupid expensive... But sexy...
According to williaty, that website is old and they're "substantially cheaper" than the website states.

They are also the best header money can buy for an RS/I.
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:36 PM   #158
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Interesting..... To bad they don't update that kind of stuff, Sam at excelleration said the exact same thing, they have an install on there web site with a set of those going being installed....hmm I wonder how much cheaper they are now....
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:50 AM   #159
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Either way I think it's a good thing to have another good set on the market, choise is good...
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:26 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suex View Post


Either way I think it's a good thing to have another good set on the market, choise is good...
Oh yeah.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:12 AM   #161
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All i know is, I want a header that doesn't move the cat.
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:57 AM   #162
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That link you posted was not the one you sent in that PM if it was we would not of had to play pictures also the has the RS connection on the end
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:57 PM   #163
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Yeah the TWE is the wrong one, it's to bad they don't do one for the 06-07... Not that they would sell more than 10 a year with those prices, but it would be cool...
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:05 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suex View Post
http://www.techworkseng.com/Products...ce_Exhaust.htm

Sexy... Wrong type, stupid expensive... But sexy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by suex View Post
Yeah the TWE is the wrong one
Wrong type? Exactly the right damned type: fast. On my car, going from the OBX header (4>1 EL, no cats) to the Techworks Engineering 4-2-1 High Output with stock cats gained me 20hp because it made the same torque for almost a thousand RPM longer.

More than worth the money.




Quote:
Originally Posted by formula91 View Post
All i know is, I want a header that doesn't move the cat.
TWE's headers leave your cat alone.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:09 PM   #165
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Oh I'm not put in them down, the wrong type for this thread is all, yeah they kick ass..no doubt there....
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:11 PM   #166
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Yeah, that's why I'm really hoping Moore will come out with something mid-priced (say $450-$500) that's well made, reliable, fits, and makes at least as much power as the OBX setup. That'd be a great niche to fill: people who want better quality than chinese crap but just can't spend out for the TWE unit.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:18 PM   #167
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Hard to say, people buy the e-bay headers cuz there cheap, poor fit up or not, they do the same as the borlas, even the borla header has half ass welds, well mine does anyway.
So It might just be up to quality,which Moore, no doubt, will out do borla hands down.

I wonder if there's a TWE rip off..
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:05 PM   #168
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No. TWE is probably a little more complex in shape then what the knock off manufacturers want to deal with. There's more challenge in getting it to fit up right and clear engine parts. In the past, people generally considered the TWE and Cobb headers were pretty equivalent for power gains. Both are effectively the same design: similar runner diameter, runner length, and collector size. They may look a bit different, but they follow the ideal settings for a header for the 2.5L when focusing on the stock power band and rev range. You're pretty much looking at 1.5" to 1.625" primary piping, 1.5" being on the small size for low-mid range gearing, 1.625" better for broad band use. The 1.75" size that TWE does offer is better suited for engines with raised redlines, running sport cams, and have some P&P work. Runner length is appropriate for midrange gearing. You're looking at something between 30" and 40" with the length generally being towards the longer for good low-midrange power. The Cobb and TWE designs are both in the 1.625" runner diameter and of about 40". The 2.25" collector sizing is appropriate for the exhaust that would be attached to it.

In the end, the best option will be the most appropriately sized and best flowing option. Runner diameter, runner length, collector diameter, and collector length need to be picked appropriately for the application. The design should use large radius curves, mandrel bends, and collect into the collector at a shallow angle to retain good flow.



As for the cheap argument, a LOT of people will greatly prefer the cheap route as long as there are not sizable differences between the cheap option and the expensive option. To have someone pay for a better product, it must be significantly better, proven and understandably better. One can say that the OBX and TWE designs give the same power gains despite the vast difference in build quality. One can equally say that there is a sizable difference in power gains between the cheaply built OBX and well built TWE options. Conceptually, they're about the same. The difference would need to be proven. There has to be a sense of worth associated with the better product, a sense of need. Why should I buy the TWE over the OBX? Build quality alone isn't enough for a lot of people. If you said the OBX made 5ft-lbs over stock and the TWE 10ft-lbs over stock, there is worth to the item. You get double the gains from the design and build quality. There is value to that. However, such things need to be clearly proven. You buy the OBX, the TWE, the Borla, the Moore prototype, and dyno each one. You do road testing to gauge throttle response and drivability. You measure fitment and quality of materials. You gather all the comparative data and weigh each product against the other. What's best? Why? Are the gains of one versus the other worth the cost difference? Moore has a task of trying to develop a product where people will say yes, the Moore header is the best option out there, makes the most power, is the best bang for the buck, or whatever.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 06-23-2010 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:23 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
One can say that the OBX and TWE designs give the same power gains despite the vast difference in build quality. One can equally say that there is a sizable difference in power gains between the cheaply built OBX and well built TWE options. Conceptually, they're about the same. The difference would need to be proven.
As I've repeatedly said, the TWE headers are vastly superior in terms of power output. At no engine speed were the TWE headers less than 5ftlbs over the OBX. Most of the way from 2kRPM to 7kRPM they were 10 or more ftlbs over the OBX. Peak power was 20 horsepower higher with the TWE than the OBX.

The TWE are vastly superior in both performance and build quality.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:42 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
No. TWE is probably a little more complex in shape then what the knock off manufacturers want to deal with. There's more challenge in getting it to fit up right and clear engine parts. In the past, people generally considered the TWE and Cobb headers were pretty equivalent for power gains. Both are effectively the same design: similar runner diameter, runner length, and collector size. They may look a bit different, but they follow the ideal settings for a header for the 2.5L when focusing on the stock power band and rev range. You're pretty much looking at 1.5" to 1.625" primary piping, 1.5" being on the small size for low-mid range gearing, 1.625" better for broad band use. The 1.75" size that TWE does offer is better suited for engines with raised redlines, running sport cams, and have some P&P work. Runner length is appropriate for midrange gearing. You're looking at something between 30" and 40" with the length generally being towards the longer for good low-midrange power. The Cobb and TWE designs are both in the 1.625" runner diameter and of about 40". The 2.25" collector sizing is appropriate for the exhaust that would be attached to it.

In the end, the best option will be the most appropriately sized and best flowing option. Runner diameter, runner length, collector diameter, and collector length need to be picked appropriately for the application. The design should use large radius curves, mandrel bends, and collect into the collector at a shallow angle to retain good flow.



As for the cheap argument, a LOT of people will greatly prefer the cheap route as long as there are not sizable differences between the cheap option and the expensive option. To have someone pay for a better product, it must be significantly better, proven and understandably better. One can say that the OBX and TWE designs give the same power gains despite the vast difference in build quality. One can equally say that there is a sizable difference in power gains between the cheaply built OBX and well built TWE options. Conceptually, they're about the same. The difference would need to be proven. There has to be a sense of worth associated with the better product, a sense of need. Why should I buy the TWE over the OBX? Build quality alone isn't enough for a lot of people. If you said the OBX made 5ft-lbs over stock and the TWE 10ft-lbs over stock, there is worth to the item. You get double the gains from the design and build quality. There is value to that. However, such things need to be clearly proven. You buy the OBX, the TWE, the Borla, the Moore prototype, and dyno each one. You do road testing to gauge throttle response and drivability. You measure fitment and quality of materials. You gather all the comparative data and weigh each product against the other. What's best? Why? Are the gains of one versus the other worth the cost difference? Moore has a task of trying to develop a product where people will say yes, the Moore header is the best option out there, makes the most power, is the best bang for the buck, or whatever.
Were you listening to the voices in my head when you wrote this last paragraph?? Honestly the hardest battle in my mind is to build a competitvely priced, well built, best bang for the buck header that will please the majority of buyers when they review all the items mentioned above..... It can be done....I just need to figure out how. The biggest battle for a smaller company like my own is price. Large companies like Borla, etc., can produce most items for less money. Im not at all saying they are better products, but usually they can come in a more competitive price. Like I've said before, I have my work cutout for me with this project.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:14 AM   #171
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Williaty, I am curious why you feel the TWE has those kinds of gains over the OBX. For one, I've never seen a dyno graph of the TWE versus anything, ever. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen a dyno graph of a TWE equipped Impreza at all. The closest thing I've ever seen is your Borla vs. OBX test and some of Matt's older dyno results for the MRT header and such. I've looked but never managed to find one. Now yes, I've seen "claim" of it making more power where there have been words and "proof" of it, but I have never seen an actual dyno graph showing it. I am also curious because I don't even make over 10 ft-lbs. with my TWE header over stock let alone over what should be decent gains from an OBX one which is known to be decent in gains over the Borla which also has gains over stock. You get the idea. I don't know. I think my average gains were 9ft-lbs. over a lot of the power band versus the stock exhaust. Mind you my header is not TWE's normal header by a rally prototype that Section 8 owned way back. It's quite a different design, although the car does end up with a very flat torque band over much of the rev range with pretty linear gains over much of the area versus stock, so I don't think it's really down anywhere. I'm not denying that TWE may make more power. Frankly the build quality is higher. I've just never seen any numbers on the subject.

As for Moore, yeah, I would hope to think that this is basically the conundrum. For anyone making an aftermarket part or any product that needs to compete well in a market, you need to find that sweet spot. I think you guys just need to spend some time prototyping. Spend the upfront resources and build a half dozen different designs. Do 1.5" primaries with a 40" length paired to a 2" exhaust. Measure power, economy, and crutch cost numbers. Do a 1.625" primary in 40" and 30" collected into a 2.25" exhaust and see how the power band changes. See if fuel economy changes. Crunch cost numbers. Step up to a 1.75" primary and run a 30" and 40" length. Dump into a 2.5" exhaust and see what changes. You may do this in large steps or simply adjust one factor at a time and get data. Build a small collection of headers and gather the info you need. Purchase the Borla, the Cobb copy OBX, and one or both of the TWE headers and dyno all of them. To regain some cost, raffle off the headers to the public at a decent price, say $400-$500 and indicate what each header is better suited for. You can sell off the Borla, OBX, and TWE headers near the cost to you. Certain gearing will favor certain people, so someone will be happy with each design. Frankly, anything well built will have gains over stock, and most people will be happy to purchase any one of them at a decent price. Then take the best prototype package and start selling that as your main product. You may even think about selling 2 or 3 types like a high mileage version, the optimum unmodified version, and a high rpm version for a built engine. You could certainly do these made to order, so you never have any inventory costs and invested money. Someone orders, and you start building it. That way there's no burden to you. The buyer won't see the header at their door 3 days later, but most people would be very content waiting a couple weeks to have a good product built for them.

I will also note you may want to look into some engine modeling software as a guide. There's a program called Engine Analyzer Pro that has a free, fully working demo that lasts I think 10 days or so. You can use that as a guide to kind of show what difference it makes to change runner diameter, runner length, collector diameter, and collector length. It may help with trying out some initial design choices. I also suggest that you look into the concept of "anti-reversion" and see what is needed to help prevent the feeding of exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber and intake and contaminate the next cycle. Proper sizing and design choices will minimize this effect. I also want to note that a specific exhaust design may make more power on the stock ECU tune than another header, however the other header may actually make more power with a revised ECU tune that may take advantage of more timing with the other design. Little details play big roles.

In the end you may or may not create a product for sale. At the very least, it will be a learning experience for your company. You will very much get good at building exhausts and know what works well on these engines. This could very well translate into custom work for customers down the road and into the public market if you do actually find this endevour economically feasible.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:27 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Williaty, I am curious why you feel the TWE has those kinds of gains over the OBX.
Because I've owned both, logged both, and had both on the dyno. I didn't bring home the run file for the TWE-only because that wasn't what we were testing that day and by the last pull, which I did bring home, a lot more than the header had changed. Basically, we did the first pull to get a baseline for the day and they had my previous pull (half a year before) up on the screen and we all went "wow! all that from a header!" even though it confirmed exactly what I had logged.



Quote:
Mind you my header is not TWE's normal header by a rally prototype that Section 8 owned way back. It's quite a different design, although the car does end up with a very flat torque band over much of the rev range with pretty linear gains over much of the area versus stock, so I don't think it's really down anywhere.
This is likely the differences in our experiences. I've got the high-output (large primaries and secondaries) 4-2-1 design. Tom and I talked at length about which of his 4 header variants (4>1 vs 4-2-1, SuperStock vs High Output). Given the fact that I have the 05-07 intake manifold and intend to raise the compression, he said I pretty much had to have the 421HO.


Honestly, I wasn't expecting the TWE header to be any different the OBX header, given that they were both EL designs. The only thing I was looking for from the TWE was better build quality than the crap from OBX. I was honestly pretty shocked when I got in the car to go to the grocery after the swap and I could feel the difference just pulling out of my driveway. There's an immense difference in the *feel* of the way the headers make power and the TWE headers have an extension towards the top end that the OBX just can't match. I logged it and was very surprised at how much more the engine was breathing.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:50 AM   #173
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so where's the best place to score TWE headers from now that we've established this?
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:51 AM   #174
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Well I would imagine that you'd do so from TWE.

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Old 06-24-2010, 02:00 AM   #175
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You've done a bit of stuff beyond just headers though. I'm not sure what cams you're running now or P&P work with the heads. My prototype is a 1.75" primary as well and 4-1 but 60" long, lol, and with cross pipes at 30" to what TWE told Section 8 to aid top end. My car is limited by the stock cams quite noticeably. I was quite glad the low end is so good though given 1.75" is actually a bad size for a stock geared setup. Frankly, I don't expect to see the real benefits from the headers until I do cams and P&P work.
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