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Old 01-03-2010, 12:21 AM   #1
907Bum
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Default I Can has Power?

Mod list:

Stock TD04
Stock TMIC
Walbro + modded stockers
Headers/UP/DP/TBE
EBCS
Cobb SF intake
Self Tuned with RR




http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...VcDhFZnc&hl=en

The flat hp curve kinda bugs me but with a TD-04 i think i'm kinda stuck with it
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Last edited by 907Bum; 01-04-2010 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Put up the real deal!
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:29 AM   #2
Sports Wagon
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This reaks of corn and Jason.
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:50 AM   #3
Stames_wiltz
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If I were to throw some EFI into the equation... see if you can add some more timing from 4750rpm to 5750rpm. You could make that power band break 200 whp and a little smoother overall pull.

Do post the logs though.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:18 AM   #4
907Bum
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Bump for the new numbers with accompanied log

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Wagon View Post
This reaks of corn and Jason.
I dunnoo... Booze maybe, Jason... if inspiration qualifies yes , but seriously he was like my personal Jesus, he inspired me.

Quote:
If I were to throw some EFI into the equation... see if you can add some more timing from 4750rpm to 5750rpm. You could make that power band break 200 whp and a little smoother overall pull.
Thanks for the tip, upped the timing by 1ish in that area and got over 200, although the amount of timing i'm running is already enough to make me squeamish, the increase didn't induce any knock .
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:56 AM   #5
Stames_wiltz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 907Bum View Post

Thanks for the tip, upped the timing by 1ish in that area and got over 200, although the amount of timing i'm running is already enough to make me squeamish, the increase didn't induce any knock .
What timing are you running? Glad you hit over the 200 mark XD

Logs dude, we need logs!
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:06 AM   #6
snowman4us
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Kinda expected more then that on E85.

Im assuming the car is Stg2, and your power numbers are about the same as a stg2 91 OTS map.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:31 AM   #7
Stames_wiltz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman4us View Post
Kinda expected more then that on E85.

Im assuming the car is Stg2, and your power numbers are about the same as a stg2 91 OTS map.
To the OP, what is the modlist?

By the looks, I would say Turboback, E85 and your own tune. Anything else?

I bet if he free'd up some restrictions, CAI, 3" inlet, Headers, and other goodies we could see good gains from the 28lbs/min turbo.

For what it is worth, here is a dyno of my 05 WRX with;
Dead bolt small 16G, ported and polished
DW 565cc inj.
STI TMIC
Cobb SF intake
Cobb inconel up-pipe
Cobb Turbo-back
APv1
Christian tuned on pump 91.



I think it could have seen a bit more power. Oh well!
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:45 AM   #8
medamullet
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Looks good. Learning and getting over the fear of knock is hard. I know the feeling. Things will improve and get better I am sure
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:59 AM   #9
907Bum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stames_wiltz View Post
To the OP, what is the modlist?

By the looks, I would say Turboback, E85 and your own tune. Anything else?

I bet if he free'd up some restrictions, CAI, 3" inlet, Headers, and other goodies we could see good gains from the 28lbs/min turbo.

For what it is worth, here is a dyno of my 05 WRX with;
Dead bolt small 16G, ported and polished
DW 565cc inj.
STI TMIC
Cobb SF intake
Cobb inconel up-pipe
Cobb Turbo-back
APv1
Christian tuned on pump 91.
Good guess, I threw up a mod list, honestly it looks eerily similar to your HP curve on the 05. Any suggestions to squeeze more out of this set up? I'm not maxing out the maf yet, but i'm sure a turbo inlet would help

Quote:
Kinda expected more then that on E85.

Im assuming the car is Stg2, and your power numbers are about the same as a stg2 91 OTS map.
I think on airboys SS i was putting down about 175hp 170tq on 91 pump, the stuff is just a giant pain to tune around, switching was the best thing i've done. Trust me i tried for about 2 months to squeeze out any more power on 91 before i switched, it just wouldn't have it. I don't have any logs at work but basically it was around 8-9 BTC on max torque tapering to 20ish at redline, all at a 10.5 afr. Oh and this is all on opensouce tuning, i havn't tried an accessport to compare it to, if you could give me the rom you speak of i could compare it to my base 91 tune.

Quote:
Looks good. Learning and getting over the fear of knock is hard. I know the feeling. Things will improve and get better I am sure
Thanks , it's a fun process though i must say!
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:22 AM   #10
Stames_wiltz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 907Bum View Post
Good guess, I threw up a mod list, honestly it looks eerily similar to your HP curve on the 05. Any suggestions to squeeze more out of this set up? I'm not maxing out the maf yet, but i'm sure a turbo inlet would help
The downside to mine was it was a 16g and yours is the stocker. The difference is a good 7 lbs/min airflow, so more could have definitely been had on my setup.

depending on future plans, I would suggest the APS 65mm CAI with their 3" inlet pipe. This should help free up restrictions and allow for a little better spool and top end gains.
STi TMIC or larger would also be a big help. The cooler the charged air, the more power you will make. When you (Jason) are pushing the turbo's you have to choke lines, they are blowing very hot air which will not help power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 907Bum View Post
I think on airboys SS i was putting down about 175hp 170tq on 91 pump, the stuff is just a giant pain to tune around, switching was the best thing i've done. Trust me i tried for about 2 months to squeeze out any more power on 91 before i switched, it just wouldn't have it. I don't have any logs at work but basically it was around 8-9 BTC on max torque tapering to 20ish at redline, all at a 10.5 afr. Oh and this is all on opensouce tuning, i havn't tried an accessport to compare it to, if you could give me the rom you speak of i could compare it to my base 91 tune.
Now is this the current Timing curve on E85? If so you can push things quite a bit more!

E85 is similar to 104 octane race fuel, you will definitely max the turbo out before you max out the gas.

Correct me if I am wrong as I am still learning, isn't timing for stock around 12* BDTC at peak torq.? Be careful and log, but IMO your spool is rather lacking for a TD04, you could try increasing your PE (power enrichment) a little earlier to see if that will help spool the turbo up faster.
Timing at redline... this is difficult as your peak power will be around cam roll off the way you are pushing it. You could push the timing to 27* on E85, obviously take it 1* at a time and see how your DAM is as well as if any knock occurs. My guess would say that it won't, but obviously take it slow.
AFR can lean out too. I would feel safe running an 11.4:1 on E85 at WOT.

Don't increase boost pressures, infact you could probably lower them a titch and just work on the AFR and Timing and then increase boost last and get better results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 907Bum View Post
Thanks , it's a fun process though i must say!
I am getting into tuning and will more than likely take a trip to California to go to EFI school. Utah needs a tuning solution and I am highly considering being that solution.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:43 PM   #11
907Bum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stames_wiltz View Post
The downside to mine was it was a 16g and yours is the stocker. The difference is a good 7 lbs/min airflow, so more could have definitely been had on my setup.

depending on future plans, I would suggest the APS 65mm CAI with their 3" inlet pipe. This should help free up restrictions and allow for a little better spool and top end gains.
STi TMIC or larger would also be a big help. The cooler the charged air, the more power you will make. When you (Jason) are pushing the turbo's you have to choke lines, they are blowing very hot air which will not help power.



Now is this the current Timing curve on E85? If so you can push things quite a bit more!

E85 is similar to 104 octane race fuel, you will definitely max the turbo out before you max out the gas.

Correct me if I am wrong as I am still learning, isn't timing for stock around 12* BDTC at peak torq.? Be careful and log, but IMO your spool is rather lacking for a TD04, you could try increasing your PE (power enrichment) a little earlier to see if that will help spool the turbo up faster.
Timing at redline... this is difficult as your peak power will be around cam roll off the way you are pushing it. You could push the timing to 27* on E85, obviously take it 1* at a time and see how your DAM is as well as if any knock occurs. My guess would say that it won't, but obviously take it slow.
AFR can lean out too. I would feel safe running an 11.4:1 on E85 at WOT.

Don't increase boost pressures, infact you could probably lower them a titch and just work on the AFR and Timing and then increase boost last and get better results.




I am getting into tuning and will more than likely take a trip to California to go to EFI school. Utah needs a tuning solution and I am highly considering being that solution.
OK thanks for the response, I need to clairfy some stuff really fast. I'm running 11.5:1 (gasoline afr's) on E, not 10.5:1 thats what i used on my 91 oct tune. Also the timing i referenced in that same paragraph refers to the 91 tune. For an E-Timing reference refer to the pull.

The stock 03 wrx map runs around 12ish during peak tq, however the compressor is limited to around 13psi, well slightly under it and the stock map for enrichment is just retarded. You have to look at one to understand just how bad it really is, but basically your looking at 13psi, and timing from 30-12-25 or so depending on the pull (initial, peak, final)

The turbo is going to be at the edge of it's efficiency range at 16.5 psi at our altitude (peak), then tapering off past 5200rpms, ive set up VE spreadsheets to figure out exactly where the edge is for the little turbo my car has, and set the boost to mimic that edge . If your throw up a compressor chart with my log above on it it's ridding the edge! I understand CFM's and how our engine's (well heads) limit the VE, the 16g flows a lot more CFM than the little TD04 ever could, i guess i should have reworded my question. The enrichment for E is acutally quite rich, I attribute my slow spool to the headers, I will try increasing the enrichment on spool up and see what happens.

I gathered smoothing out the intake portion of the air and then adding a silicone Y pipe with an upgraded inter-cooler, that seemed to be the next direction to go in, that and then upgrading the turbo (then the transmission etc etc etc)... EFI school would be a great next step, i'm all about understanding everything i'm doing, not just doing something and hoping for the best .
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:06 PM   #12
Kastley85891
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Be careful on your timing even with corn, there are many knock on effects to running too much past MPT and even running too little, all off which can also be counter acted by adjustments in other areas.... just be cautious.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:04 PM   #13
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Just like everyone said, but take it slow and 1 thing at a time.

With that being said. You should be able to run more then 8-9 that you are running at base timing. Peak HP wont go up by much (turbo is out of air). But you should be able to get more tq out of it.

PS. Also dont push it to much this time of year. As the weather right now is great for making power. But once summer days hit of 100+ degrees outside you will start knocking.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:20 PM   #14
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^unless you set up your comp tables properly ;-)
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:25 PM   #15
907Bum
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Quote:
Be careful on your timing even with corn, there are many knock on effects to running too much past MPT and even running too little, all off which can also be counter acted by adjustments in other areas.... just be cautious
Maximum spark advance for best torque? Thanks The car doesn't knock with the timing it's running, i've tried everything to get it to go besides hotter weather, so when the season starts to change i'll notch down the timing a degree or two across the board .

On accident (Bad cell entry on a rom) i ran 26ish degrees BTDC on WG pressure with this stuff with no knock, only one pull, but i still freaked out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman4us View Post
Just like everyone said, but take it slow and 1 thing at a time.

With that being said. You should be able to run more then 8-9 that you are running at base timing. Peak HP wont go up by much (turbo is out of air). But you should be able to get more tq out of it.

PS. Also dont push it to much this time of year. As the weather right now is great for making power. But once summer days hit of 100+ degrees outside you will start knocking.
Noted thanks!

Quote:
^unless you set up your comp tables properly ;-)
Yup already done for the summer heat



Hey Stames next time you peruse through check the ITT in the pull, it's about where you suggested it at, 27.5 at peak
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:46 PM   #16
Stames_wiltz
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your power is pretty much maxed out then. I would avoid the silicone inlet pipe. Imagine you are sucking through a straw, now put a napkin over the top of it. what happens to the walls of the straw? Hard pipe the inlet with APS is the correct answer. Agency power's fitment is... not so good, pay the extra $50 and get APS.

What future turbo? If I may suggest... HTA68 and 18G would be the biggest I would put on the 2.0L. VF's are cheap, but you won't make that much more hp. If I were to do another 2.0 build, it would be the HTA68.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:48 PM   #17
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Glad to see you have a handle on it, but for ref, you "could' run at your boost levels with decent fuel targets on E85 (you can go leaner btw) 22 at peak and 30, or more ;-) up top
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:40 PM   #18
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your numbers are almost identical to mine. I average around 210 hp and 235 trq using airboys. mods are almost identical too. nice job
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stames_wiltz View Post
I am getting into tuning and will more than likely take a trip to California to go to EFI school. Utah needs a tuning solution and I am highly considering being that solution.
I'm right there with you, I would love to take a trip down to take the class as well, I'm just trying to figure out a good time to do it.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:06 PM   #20
907Bum
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Originally Posted by Kastley85891 View Post
Glad to see you have a handle on it, but for ref, you "could' run at your boost levels with decent fuel targets on E85 (you can go leaner btw) 22 at peak and 30, or more ;-) up top
Holy cow thats a ton of timing! I'll mess around with turning it up in a couple of days, Once the newness of the E-85 gets outa my system

Quote:
What future turbo? If I may suggest... HTA68 and 18G would be the biggest I would put on the 2.0L. VF's are cheap, but you won't make that much more hp. If I were to do another 2.0 build, it would be the HTA68.
The HTA68 and EVO3 16g get a lot of press, I honestly don't know where this is gonna go... lol thanks though! I will for sure look into getting a turbo inlet in the immediate future I'll be sure not to skimp for anything less quality than the APS
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:01 PM   #21
Kastley85891
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Yes it is a **** load of timing and at your altitude 'may' not cut it , but from experience on E85 it could be done, if..

You are continuing to make power
It enables you to hold your boost up top
Your EGT's are managable
Your block can take the individual cylinder pressures
E85 has such good knock retention that it can mask the real state of your tune, a smooth timing curve can also allow for more total timing to be used, but then the boost curve also has a lot to do with stability coupled with the fueling , cam timing......
blah blah
I ran that and more and settled on less, every motor and set up is different but thats the beauty of tuning.
If you want any ref or need second opinion, 2c PM me NP
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