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Old 11-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #1801
chubbsub
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Quote:
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So I'm wanting to do some shooting this weekend, but am anticipating everyone else will too. I normally do Table Mesa Rd., but it gets full quick. With that said, are there any good (and legal) spots with lots of room out on the east side?

It's kind of a drive for you but I usually go to Sugerloaf/Sycamore creek area. It's on the 87 by the Four Peaks turnoff, just a few miles north of Bush highway. There's also Florence junction just off of the 60, but also pretty far from you. Those are the usual free/legal spots that I shoot. But most of the time I just go to the Usery shooting club because it's right around the corner from me and like $7 to shoot all day. Usually lots of room too.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:55 PM   #1802
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FYI my bro in law went up there last week and that big shooting spot is all closed now. I'm talking about the area that is like a small valley with the metal stakes on the opposite side.
I was there a couple weeks ago, there aren't as many spots as there used to be, but BLM has done more designation of where/where not to shoot.

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Originally Posted by chubbsub View Post
It's kind of a drive for you but I usually go to Sugerloaf/Sycamore creek area. It's on the 87 by the Four Peaks turnoff, just a few miles north of Bush highway. There's also Florence junction just off of the 60, but also pretty far from you.
Typically yes, buy my folks live out in Scottsdale so when I am there it may be an option.

Pics of the Vortex to come...
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:46 PM   #1803
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Vortex Viper PST 1-4x (MOA/Capped turrets) on Primary Arms mount. I really like the optic. Good glass, though I'd say the Leupold VXR Patrol is very slightly more clear. Good eye relief and forgiving-enough eye box. The mount is adequate. When I first started using this mount, the rail attachement screw wasn't staying tight, it is now though. I may upgrade to a better PA mount in the future, but for now I'll see how this one does in the long-term.


I was worried about the reticle being too big and "blocking" my field of view...not an issue, lol. If anything, the MOA lines are too small/tight and hard to actually see.


The zoom adjustment is firm, but not too difficult, and has a rubberized grip surface.


Rer section-glad it has a focal adjustment.


I like that when the turrets are uncapped, it is a finger adjustment for wind/ele. Adjustment click resistance/feedback feel good...though admitedly I don't have much to compare it to.


Thanks for the recommendation/help folks
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:21 AM   #1804
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Great!

How does it shoot?
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:06 AM   #1805
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Good, real happy with it all now. I bought some of the 62 grain OTM rounds...sheesh, that stuff is sweet. I just wish it wasn't so expensive.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:51 AM   #1806
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You have me wanting the ss 1x6 now dang it!
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:12 PM   #1807
shemoves
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IMO, if you were to get something like that, you'd be better with something that will look further so you can really take advantage of it. IMO, a 5.56 just doesn't reach far enough to justify it, and I don't know if 6x is enough for 800+ shooting.

That said, looking at 100m targets out of 6x would be pretty sweet...haha!
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #1808
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800+ and I love my nightforce.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:04 AM   #1809
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https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...pa4-14xffp.htm

you don't need to waste money on any of these upstart designer scope brands. All my sniper buddies use cheap first focal plain scopes. I ust shoot at paper so I use a fixed 10x
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:51 PM   #1810
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Friend of mine, is prior service. I'd jump on it if I had the extra $. Mods, If I am not allowed to link, let me know and I'll remove it. (SOLD).

Last edited by shemoves; 11-29-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:54 AM   #1811
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Saw that on AZS, its already sold!

Last edited by MrMcCrackin; 11-27-2012 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:24 PM   #1812
shemoves
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Sold it this evening.

Last edited by shemoves; 11-29-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:25 PM   #1813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemoves View Post
IMO, if you were to get something like that, you'd be better with something that will look further so you can really take advantage of it. IMO, a 5.56 just doesn't reach far enough to justify it, and I don't know if 6x is enough for 800+ shooting.

That said, looking at 100m targets out of 6x would be pretty sweet...haha!
Kinda depends on what kind of shooting you are doing at 800 meters. Of you want to shoot for groups than 6x inst enough. But shooting man sized targets at that range is t to hard with a 4x scope so 6x would be that much easier.

US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have made kills out to and beyond 800 meters using M16/M4s topped with 4x ACOGs. The Brittish are fielding the LMT MWS 308 topped with 6x ACOGs and I have heard of them making kills out to 1000 meters with that setup.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:32 AM   #1814
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I don't doubt it. That said, what do you think realisitc usable range is for 5.56 in a "typical" Iraq/AStan firefight?
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:33 AM   #1815
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Quote:
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I don't doubt it. That said, what do you think realisitc usable range is for 5.56 in a "typical" Iraq/AStan firefight?
I dont trust the 5.56/.223 andything past 150-200m doesnt hold energy worth a damn.... when in doubt 7.62nato
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:20 AM   #1816
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i didnt mean to start a pissing match

Its all about personal preference, i have had every optic combo minus eotech.

ACOGs have always been my favorite, i guess cause like an infomercial you just set it and forget it!

The only down side to the ACOG is the weight. The 4x are heavy and the 6x was a boat anchor!

My favorite is the 3x on a mini mount, its the perfect balance for me.


That said, the 1-4 variable scopes are multifunctional as in you twist the lens and you can do close work twist again and reach out and touch something. kinda like the aimpoint and 3x mag combo

So i think having a 1-6 would be a hoot depending on the specs
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:02 AM   #1817
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I don't doubt it. That said, what do you think realisitc usable range is for 5.56 in a "typical" Iraq/AStan firefight?
With good ammunition like M262 I believe it's a solid 800 yard cartridge. I've seen it shot effectively out to that distance and farther and I've shot things out past 1000 meters with my SAW.

The 5.56 doesn't have the oomph out at long range as 7.62 NATO does but it will still put a hole through you. The M262 round will fragment all the way down to around 2200 FPS velocity and below that it will still yaw and cause a good amount of damage.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:44 PM   #1818
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The M262 round will fragment all the way down to around 2200 FPS velocity and below that it will still yaw
Really?! Isn't the minimum for M193 to yaw something around 3000 FPS?
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:57 PM   #1819
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Quote:
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Really?! Isn't the minimum for M193 to yaw something around 3000 FPS?
It isn't a minimum to yaw its a minimum to reliably fragment. They will pretty much always yaw because they are heavy at the rear. The fragmentation threshold for M193 and M855 are both around 2700 FPS. That's also not a hard figure either, more like a norm.

The longer 77 grain Sierra Matchking with a cannelure used for M262 fragments at a lower velocity because its longer, therefor creating more pressure on the bullet when it yaws, and it has a thinner jacket.

Last edited by C-grunt; 11-29-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:04 PM   #1820
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The other big thing in truth about the whole bullet yaw debate is what twist rate you have in your rifles bbl... the faster the twist rate (1:7) the more stable the bullet becomes... hence why a 1:7 bbl shoots better typically with heavier bullets. if you were to shoot the same 77gr bullet in (I know how dare i say this) a 1:9 bbl the higher the probability of the bullet becoming unstable (yawing) on impact with soft tissue... you may not see sub 1/2 moa or even sub moa, but the likelihood of getting super tight grouping is slim to non on a mil-spec gun (mil-spec requires sub 2moa to pass).

sorry just a random note from a gunsmithing student who's been force fed this information for the past several months....
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:00 AM   #1821
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The other big thing in truth about the whole bullet yaw debate is what twist rate you have in your rifles bbl... the faster the twist rate (1:7) the more stable the bullet becomes... hence why a 1:7 bbl shoots better typically with heavier bullets. if you were to shoot the same 77gr bullet in (I know how dare i say this) a 1:9 bbl the higher the probability of the bullet becoming unstable (yawing) on impact with soft tissue... you may not see sub 1/2 moa or even sub moa, but the likelihood of getting super tight grouping is slim to non on a mil-spec gun (mil-spec requires sub 2moa to pass).

sorry just a random note from a gunsmithing student who's been force fed this information for the past several months....
What would be considered tight grouping? 1MOA?
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:10 AM   #1822
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It isn't a minimum to yaw its a minimum to reliably fragment. They will pretty much always yaw because they are heavy at the rear. The fragmentation threshold for M193 and M855 are both around 2700 FPS. That's also not a hard figure either, more like a norm.

The longer 77 grain Sierra Matchking with a cannelure used for M262 fragments at a lower velocity because its longer, therefor creating more pressure on the bullet when it yaws, and it has a thinner jacket.
So fragmentation is more desirable than yaw?

On a side note, the more I read, the more I wonder why a penetrator round is the standard load. I guess, at the least, it could be seen as a test in weather high attrition in the short term, to have some return, vs long-term slow, steady, permanent reductions are more effective.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:10 AM   #1823
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i went back a few pages because i know you guys talked about it, but now i cant find it and i get so frustrated searching on my droid.

i want...i mean need to get some .308 or equivalent brass to shoot through my bushmaster. J&G is plum out. what is the place you guys go?
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:38 PM   #1824
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i went back a few pages because i know you guys talked about it, but now i cant find it and i get so frustrated searching on my droid.

i want...i mean need to get some .308 or equivalent brass to shoot through my bushmaster. J&G is plum out. what is the place you guys go?
Local or online order?
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:26 PM   #1825
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