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Old 05-24-2002, 01:40 AM   #1
Avenger
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Default Solid deck sleeve

Does anyone know if they make Solid deck sleeve for the EJ25? I found a site that make solid deck sleeve but they don't have any subaru kits. I think this might help with headgasket problems.

http://www.darton-international.com/
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:59 AM   #2
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Do you mean cylinder sleeves? Or insterts to make the deck a semi-closed deck?

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Old 05-24-2002, 02:00 AM   #3
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Open deck to close deck.
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Old 05-24-2002, 02:39 AM   #4
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I'm also interested in some inserts. I know somebody makes them!!
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Old 05-24-2002, 05:35 AM   #5
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From what I have heard the inserts can sometimes cause more harm than good. The best thing to do is to weld some into the block but that takes time and the monies!

The inserts if not welded in can actually walk inside the block cause stress in areas that would have been fine before. And you will just cause more problems...

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Old 05-24-2002, 07:45 PM   #6
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We will be doing a block gaurd (lie offered for the Hondas) in the near future for you GC8'ers. This will strictly be a weld in unit for the guy building up a powerful Ej25 motor.

The first one will be done off a motor we are about to start building, and once completed (mid summer), we'll give you the full deal!

adam
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Old 05-24-2002, 11:31 PM   #7
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Thumbs up

Adam...

I'm looking forward to hearing about it!
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Old 05-25-2002, 10:42 PM   #8
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from the pictures cobbtuning.com has on there web site , they look to do a good job on converting an open to a closed, i think they said 1000$ on your own block, 2000$ with a new block..
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Old 05-26-2002, 12:54 AM   #9
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I am SO not a fan of the stupid inserts. I know plenty of people who blew thier civic motors by going that route.

Also If closed deck is so perfect, why did GM's race program for thier 4cyl stick with the open deck? They tried closing the deck but ended up with MORE sealing problems. I'd think a team of factory engineers could convert a block to closed deck w/o any bad side affects otehr than whats inherent to the closed deck blocks.
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Old 05-26-2002, 02:05 PM   #10
Evan J. Kelly
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by XT6Wagon
why did GM's race program for thier 4cyl stick with the open deck?
Because the stock heads were flexing... are stock heads aren't nearly as crappy.

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Old 05-26-2002, 04:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by XT6Wagon
GM's
Theres the problem!
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Old 05-26-2002, 05:51 PM   #12
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i'm building up a 300hp phase 2 ej25 right now. i'm probably going to leave it open deck. if you close the deck the cylinder walls might build up too much heat. unless your after 500+hp i don't think you need closed deck.
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Old 05-28-2002, 04:10 AM   #13
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Point is that they are making 800HP on a motor with a MUCH taller cyl bore than our EJ-20's, and they are still using open deck. I'd only assume they tested ther improved head retention on a solid deck motor in addition to the open deck motor.
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Old 06-12-2002, 07:50 PM   #14
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when you "close the deck," what exactly is happening? Are you adding bits of metal in the water jacket between the cylinder wall and the outer block? Or am I completely off?

Thanks a lot!

Chuck
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Old 06-12-2002, 10:51 PM   #15
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Default Closed Deck

Here's a link the shows the difference between the two visually. I don't know anything beyond that, but I'd love to know.

-Rich

http://www.wrx.org.au/tech/

Last edited by seven881; 06-12-2002 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 06-13-2002, 12:11 AM   #16
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Default Sleeves and Semi closed deck

First, I wanted to say that after 3 months Darton still has not finished the sleeves and sent the block back for the 100mm pistons, when they initially said "Subaru sleeves...No problem. The turn around time is 3 weeks." Excuse after excuse, no returned calls just to hear the status, 50% payment asked for when they had already cashed the check for the Entire amount. Just over 6 weeks ago they said it was on it's way back, asked for the tracking number 2 weeks later and "oh it is still being worked on and would be shipped in a week" Well that week passed and now calls are being placed twice a week with no resolve. I told them we could keep them busy with Subarus from referrals and now I have an EJ25 block that is being sent out to Mahle instead of another to Darton for sleeves and pistons. Mahle produces some of the best quality products I have ever seen and I guess the Formula One engine builders would concur since they do quite a few of those as well as just about every type of motorsport. Darton was recommended by some V8 racing guys but I guess since the piston moves in a horizontal motion instead of a 60 degree angle or vertically and it's not an "H" car. . . Just frustrated but when you own a custom Subaru and your shooting for big numbers on the dyno and low ETs you have to be patient. I just think a little professionalism and some integrity were (is) in order.
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Old 06-13-2002, 12:23 AM   #17
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Default A continuation

Anyway, sleeving is not really necessary unless you are boosting more than 15 psi (w/ low compression pistons) after sonic testing an EJ25 block we found it was about a tenth of an inch at the narrowest point and just shy of an eighth. The stock head gasket is the weak point as well as inadequate stock valve spring pressure. The JunAuto racing GC8 uses a special custom webbing on the stock block EJ25 to maintain stability and they are putting down 550+ hp on the circuit spec car. I believe Cobb Tuning has a great program to weld the deck closed and for the $1000 approx. it is a great insurance policy against the sleeve walking. The physical thickness of the sleeve was the limiting factor in our situation since we are looking for reliable boost levels between 25-30 psi. An EJ25 block at 300 hp is no sweat and a safe reliable motor. The EJ20 WRX motor and the EJ22 Legacy Turbo use a semi-closed deck block for added strength and reliability. Byron's EJ22 pumps out about 600 hp, so that is a pretty healthy testimonial.
By the way, GM used a thicker sleeve while running an open-deck and a different design of head gasket which allowed better cooling system efficiency while maintaining high cylinder pressure.

And I'm spent - Troy (w/ Austin Powers undertones)
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Old 06-13-2002, 01:11 AM   #18
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I just got a primo EJ25 for my turbo project and want to build the bottom end so I never have to worry about it being the weak link. Closing the deck seems like a great way to handle more stress. It looks like all you need to do in order to close the deck is weld some 7/16's aluminum in the same pattern as the head gasket around the tops of the cylinders. I havn't visited any shops yet, but this seems like something that can be done for much less than $1000.
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Old 06-13-2002, 03:28 AM   #19
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Sorry to jump in here and possibly be off the subject but I'm interested in the closed, open deck definition.
I recently bought a '90-'93 (best guess) EJ20 turbo engine and have been wondering if it is considered a closed deck or partially closed deck (see pictures below)?

On a side note, while I was looking for new head gaskets I compared the ones that came off this motor with the ones that came off the '98RS, and the WRX and surprisingly both head gaskets were almost identical to the ones off of my motor. So I was wondering if the '98RS has a closed, or semi closed, deck? If not why does it have almost exactly the same head gasket as my EJ20 turbo motor (besides the pistons being bigger)?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg closed-deck-2.jpg (11.6 KB, 162 views)

Last edited by suberboy; 06-13-2002 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 06-13-2002, 03:29 AM   #20
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A closer photo of the EJ20 turbo motor.
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File Type: jpg closed-deck-1.jpg (10.1 KB, 162 views)
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Old 06-13-2002, 08:05 AM   #21
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That block you have there is closed deck!

No question.

Cobbs method is in place for a reason. They heat cycle the wwhole block adding on layers of weld each time and allowing it to cool. In the process this assures that no stress is placed on the bores.

If you just weld in a piece of metal to the bores, as it cools it contracts.

If it was that easy, dont you think cobb would make it a cheaper mod?
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Old 06-13-2002, 02:59 PM   #22
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One more point for GM using an open deck on the drag car.

Those racing engines are torn down constantly, and I'm sure the team has an extra engine on hand if one blows at a race. They don't need the extra durability of a closed deck like a daily driver does if he wants to push 400+ hp...

I'd rather close the deck and not worry, I mean, if you have the $$$ to do a 400+ hp Impreza, why cut corners?

Jim
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Old 06-13-2002, 09:21 PM   #23
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I really doubt that relaiblity is a secondary concern. That level of racing is such that the motor must make it the whole weekend w/o a problem or needing a replacement. If you puke a motor in qualifing you might not make the show, if you puke during the show, there goes any chance of a win.

I think people are missing the point. Stresses on the Cyl wall are fairly minor from the piston, and often the lower stresses from the greater and more even cooling from the open deck block can make up for that.
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