TD04 and E85 WRX - Nearly 275whp 300wtrq

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 12:55 AM

Car details:

2002 WRX (stock motor and turbo)

3" DP with remote cutout
750cc injectors
TXS TMIC
XS Engineering Intake
Boost pill and some other mods that I forget.

Fuel:

Tuned on 93 octane (gray lines)
Tuned on E85 (red lines)

Boost:

24.5psi (peak mid-range) tapering to 18psi (redline)

We tuned this car a few weeks ago and I promised the owner that I'd through it up. I want to say first that it takes a lot to impress me these days. I say this because power, quickness, etc is all relative you know

For example, our 2005 shop Evo recently put down 720whp at only 35psi on E85. That was only shakedown numbers as we're going for 900whp at 45psi and C16 when everything is said and one.

So anyway, back to the little TD04 powered car. The initial pull on my OTS map showed a really disappointing 192whp on pump gas (93 octane) at lower boost. I new we were going to need to work on this one a bit to get my normal numbers of 235-245whp that I see on most 2.0L WRXs.

Fast forward to the final number on pump gas of 252whp. We then dumped 10 gallons of E85 on top of an empty. Loaded our tweaked pump gas map to run on E85 and we were off.

The first pull was about 260whp with little done except to scale the injectors. We then continued run after run to the final numbers seen here. This was one of the stronger WRX motors I have seen and thought you might like to see it too.

The initial peaks in the torque curve is where the boost hits hard and then stabilizes.

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Jubert69 · 01-30-2010, 01:11 AM

Soooo want E85. What IDCs were you running at peak?

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jubert69

Soooo want E85. What IDCs were you running at peak?

Yeah it's nice because of the low cost. Down here it's the price of regular unleaded. I think they were around 80-85% IIRC on E85.

Arr · 01-30-2010, 04:38 AM

is this possible for gt?

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 12:45 PM

What exactly does the "GT" have in it? An EJ205? If so then yes. Do you have access to ethanol in Latvia?

Concillian · 01-30-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motion Lab Tuning

Boost:

24.5psi (peak mid-range) tapering to 18psi (redline)

18psi at redline on a stock TD04?

Usually tapers down to ~12 psi even if you run an MBC set to 15+ psi. What did you do to be able to get 18psi at redline?

OppositeLock · 01-30-2010, 03:21 PM

Nice results, wish we had E85 here. What correction factor was used?

RedRex26 · 01-30-2010, 03:52 PM

wish we had e85 in jersey we have one station and its over an hr away from me. I bet i can make 400whp well until then i'll just have to dream.

scoobystas · 01-30-2010, 04:31 PM

thats alot of foot lbs of torque for the 5spd tranny....but i want e85 too

i heard it even smells nice when it burns haha.

bluemicamatt · 01-30-2010, 05:16 PM

So glad to see people are experimenting with E85 and the TD04...I've been thinking about trying this, so many gas stations are selling it in the St Louis area now, and its 50 cents a gallon cheaper than 93 octane.

Definitely gonna get an E85 map with my Stage II tune.

If it works, definitely a better option for me than swapping turbos.

oxox55 · 01-30-2010, 05:31 PM

If you don't mind- What kind of timing and afr's are you seeing?

juanmedina · 01-30-2010, 05:51 PM

u got a PM

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 09:04 PM

Replied, Juan!

AFR were in the 12s

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobystas

thats alot of foot lbs of torque for the 5spd tranny....but i want e85 too

i heard it even smells nice when it burns haha.

Yes smells really nice

That's one fo the first things folks mention when we do the tunes.

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-30-2010, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemicamatt

So glad to see people are experimenting with E85 and the TD04...

No experimenting here

That's how we roll at Motion Lab. Although, I'd still prefer 120 leaded octane any day of the week if it was affodable. That's the beauty of E85 though. You get a nice fuel for the price of unleaded crap gas. Can't argue with that.

Arr · 01-31-2010, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motion Lab Tuning

What exactly does the "GT" have in it? An EJ205? If so then yes. Do you have access to ethanol in Latvia?

yeap, weve got few statoil stations with e85, its cheaper by 0.30cents than 98gas
1liter of premium gas - 1.49usd
normal - 1.44usd
disesel 1.35usd
e85- about 1.15$
vin decoder says - EJ20G

Motion Lab Tuning · 01-31-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arr

yeap, weve got few statoil stations with e85, its cheaper by 0.30cents than 98gas
1liter of premium gas - 1.49usd
normal - 1.44usd
disesel 1.35usd
e85- about 1.15$
vin decoder says - EJ20G

Actually that's not a bad motor. I believe it came in a couple if different flavors. IIRC there was a closed deck 20g and an open one. No idea what you've got.

How would you tune for the difference in fuels? Are you running stand-alone EMS or piggyback? Shoot me over a PM and I may be able to be of some assistance. We've literally done over 75 unique tunes over the years between Evos and Subarus. There's a lot more to just tuning for power on ethanol that many other tuners are just staring to realize.

speedin · 01-31-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobystas

thats alot of foot lbs of torque for the 5spd tranny....but i want e85 too

i heard it even smells nice when it burns haha.

It smells great!

This is my WRX by the way. Its absolutely INCREDIBLE! The kick this thing has is wicked! Also the motor, tranny, and turbo are the stock untouched units with over 110k miles on them. Todd got all the power mods, really dont have many mods in terms of power, just the right ones

. Really I think the only power mod he forgot was a gutted WRX up-pipe. But thats it! Here are some vids and photos.....

Dyno vid

" target="_blank">

Sean2.5Black · 01-31-2010, 06:38 PM

Wow, I wish you guys lived closer to me...

I need a pp6 tune + I just got 800cc injectors + I need that UEGO!

Some bad ass numbers you guys put up there.

Motion Lab Tuning · 02-01-2010, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean2.5Black

Wow, I wish you guys lived closer to me...

I need a pp6 tune + I just got 800cc injectors + I need that UEGO!

Some bad ass numbers you guys put up there.

Thanks Sean. Wish you were closer this way to the "right" coast

juanmedina · 02-01-2010, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concillian

18psi at redline on a stock TD04?

Usually tapers down to ~12 psi even if you run an MBC set to 15+ psi. What did you do to be able to get 18psi at redline?

Can you guys answer this question? .. is it the EBC

?
What is the redline set at?

speedin · 02-01-2010, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juanmedina

Can you guys answer this question? .. is it the EBC

?
What is the redline set at?

Factory EBC with a different pill from Subaru. Redline is like 7300 0r 7200.

Motion Lab Tuning · 02-01-2010, 01:11 AM

Yeah that's right, Mark decided to go the boost 'pill' route. Works ok but our 3-port BCS would've been considerably better

Concillian · 02-01-2010, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedin

Factory EBC with a different pill from Subaru. Redline is like 7300 0r 7200.

That doesn't get you 18psi at redline in a normal setup.

If you put a ball / spring style MBC there's NOTHING pushing on the wastegate to open it. And in that situation, the TD04 normally still only holds 12-14ish PSI @ redline in every setup I've ever seen. It simply runs out of breath. You can't make the turbo give boost there with boost control. It's like someone posting a 10.x 1/4mile timeslip with a stock STi and then saying they were able to go faster than every other STi by cutting the stop on on their gas pedal so they could push it down further than anyone else... it just doesn't work like that.

I just don't believe that 18psi @ redline from a normal WRX TD04 happens just with boost control. I've seen too many counter examples to believe you just cranked the boost and got 18. Are you positive your gauge is reading correct?

KP · 02-01-2010, 05:38 AM

^I was thinking the same thing. The graph looks like it's a correction factor change. I believe a little more torque and maybe a slight spool increase can be had from E85 and a td04. But like a few have said before the turbo just runs out of breath. I guess some extra timing could help a little for the top end, but the turbo only moves so much air.

01-30-2010, 12:55 AM	#1
Motion Lab Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 228856 Join Date: Nov 2009 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Cobb Pro-Tuning	TD04 and E85 WRX - Nearly 275whp 300wtrq Car details: 2002 WRX (stock motor and turbo) 3" DP with remote cutout 750cc injectors TXS TMIC XS Engineering Intake Boost pill and some other mods that I forget. Fuel: Tuned on 93 octane (gray lines) Tuned on E85 (red lines) Boost: 24.5psi (peak mid-range) tapering to 18psi (redline) We tuned this car a few weeks ago and I promised the owner that I'd through it up. I want to say first that it takes a lot to impress me these days. I say this because power, quickness, etc is all relative you know For example, our 2005 shop Evo recently put down 720whp at only 35psi on E85. That was only shakedown numbers as we're going for 900whp at 45psi and C16 when everything is said and one. So anyway, back to the little TD04 powered car. The initial pull on my OTS map showed a really disappointing 192whp on pump gas (93 octane) at lower boost. I new we were going to need to work on this one a bit to get my normal numbers of 235-245whp that I see on most 2.0L WRXs. Fast forward to the final number on pump gas of 252whp. We then dumped 10 gallons of E85 on top of an empty. Loaded our tweaked pump gas map to run on E85 and we were off. The first pull was about 260whp with little done except to scale the injectors. We then continued run after run to the final numbers seen here. This was one of the stronger WRX motors I have seen and thought you might like to see it too. The initial peaks in the torque curve is where the boost hits hard and then stabilizes. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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01-30-2010, 01:11 AM	#2
Jubert69 Scooby Specialist Member#: 167739 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: CT Vehicle: 04 WRX	Soooo want E85. What IDCs were you running at peak?

01-30-2010, 04:38 AM	#4
Arr Scooby Newbie Member#: 201827 Join Date: Feb 2009 Chapter/Region: International Location: Latvia, Riga Vehicle: 1998 Impreza GT Blue	is this possible for gt?

01-30-2010, 12:45 PM	#5
Motion Lab Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 228856 Join Date: Nov 2009 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Cobb Pro-Tuning	What exactly does the "GT" have in it? An EJ205? If so then yes. Do you have access to ethanol in Latvia?

01-30-2010, 03:21 PM	#7
OppositeLock Scooby Specialist Member#: 54060 Join Date: Feb 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: N Jersey Vehicle: 205 + td04=12.4@109 V8 207+VF37=12.3@111	Nice results, wish we had E85 here. What correction factor was used?

01-30-2010, 03:52 PM	#8
RedRex26 Scooby Specialist Member#: 133418 Join Date: Nov 2006 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: middle of no where Vehicle: 2006 DOM3 XTR WRX TR SRR 407whp 365wtq ppg'd	wish we had e85 in jersey we have one station and its over an hr away from me. I bet i can make 400whp well until then i'll just have to dream.

01-30-2010, 04:31 PM	#9
scoobystas Scooby Specialist Member#: 26568 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Brighton, Mass Vehicle: 2003 Yellow Bugeye Version 8-Vf37	thats alot of foot lbs of torque for the 5spd tranny....but i want e85 too i heard it even smells nice when it burns haha.

01-30-2010, 05:16 PM	#10
bluemicamatt Scooby Newbie Member#: 220246 Join Date: Aug 2009 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: St. Louis, but in IL Vehicle: 2007 WRX TR WRB	So glad to see people are experimenting with E85 and the TD04...I've been thinking about trying this, so many gas stations are selling it in the St Louis area now, and its 50 cents a gallon cheaper than 93 octane. Definitely gonna get an E85 map with my Stage II tune. If it works, definitely a better option for me than swapping turbos.

01-30-2010, 05:31 PM	#11
oxox55 * Banned * Member#: 217423 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: utah Vehicle: 02 wrx E85 psm	If you don't mind- What kind of timing and afr's are you seeing?

01-30-2010, 05:51 PM	#12
juanmedina Scooby Guru Member#: 133146 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: SC Vehicle: 07 FPgreen 7.37@95 WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph	u got a PM

01-30-2010, 09:04 PM	#13
Motion Lab Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 228856 Join Date: Nov 2009 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Cobb Pro-Tuning	Replied, Juan! AFR were in the 12s

01-31-2010, 06:38 PM	#19
Sean2.5Black Scooby Specialist Member#: 150647 Join Date: Jun 2007 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Beaverton, OR Vehicle: 98 Impreza 2.5RS Ej20G hybrid	Wow, I wish you guys lived closer to me... I need a pp6 tune + I just got 800cc injectors + I need that UEGO! Some bad ass numbers you guys put up there.

02-01-2010, 01:11 AM	#23
Motion Lab Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 228856 Join Date: Nov 2009 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Cobb Pro-Tuning	Yeah that's right, Mark decided to go the boost 'pill' route. Works ok but our 3-port BCS would've been considerably better

02-01-2010, 05:38 AM	#25
KP Scooby Guru Member#: 147637 Join Date: Apr 2007 Chapter/Region: International Location: PM SkimSTI for FREEEEEEEEEEEEE Vehicle: HJ's Ask Hobbs. He knows.	^I was thinking the same thing. The graph looks like it's a correction factor change. I believe a little more torque and maybe a slight spool increase can be had from E85 and a td04. But like a few have said before the turbo just runs out of breath. I guess some extra timing could help a little for the top end, but the turbo only moves so much air.