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Old 02-15-2010, 12:45 AM   #276
wantsti
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How would wrx koni's with rce yellows compare or rank to some of the set ups you drove?
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:45 AM   #277
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what spring rates? what damper settings? Testing on the street and testing on the track is apples and orangutans. comparing 4k springs to 10k springs is even worse. give me a break
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:50 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantsti View Post
How would wrx koni's with rce yellows compare or rank to some of the set ups you drove?
The Koni dampers are very good. The Yellows are fairly good as well. They're just a skosh lower than I fancy, as you can definitely start to feel that you're slamming into the limit of travel on some of the rougher stuff. The rates are *slightly* higher than is really necessary for street tires. For that reason, I think the Blacks (marginally softer, marginally higher) is a better spring for most people. Still good with the Konis.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:52 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
Why does Phil from Element do so well on crappy BCs?
Have you seen him drive? He would be fast on anything.

I would also guess that he got the BC's either cheap or free. The $2K+ coilover places don't have as much to prove.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:53 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
what spring rates? what damper settings? Testing on the street and testing on the track is apples and orangutans. comparing 4k springs to 10k springs is even worse. give me a break
With 10k, they'd be even worse on the street. 10k is honestly stupid on the street. There's no streetable tire on earth that needs 10k rates. You should ALWAYS pick your spring rates based on what your tires need, not what you fancy.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:56 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
Have you seen him drive? He would be fast on anything.
Bingo. You can make mistakes in your setup and still be fast. Hell, you can be fast enough to win at the level of competition we're talking about and being doing *most* things wrong in terms of setup. It's not until you're at LMP/F1/WRC level that you not only have to be a fast driver, you also have to not have made any mistakes in your setup, engineering, strategy, etc.


You can put fast drivers like Tony W (or Phil, from what people say but I don't know him personally) in a damned Ford Pinto and they'll go out there and win.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:14 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I have droop similar to your your car Tony

But that road is not smooth!

I'm on Koni 8610s and Swift springs +helpers on ground controls

Last edited by joltdudeuc; 02-15-2010 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:17 AM   #283
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I have droop similar to your your car Tony

But that road is not smooth!
It's my car/video. Actually, not even my grandma thinks that road is rough.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:26 AM   #284
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Quote:
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It's my car/video. Actually, not even my grandma thinks that road is rough.
It mat not be rough, but it sure isn't smooth. I mean, it rolls, has dips, small potholes, etc. you went over a small curb or something at the end there, and had as much droop happen as in 2 or 3 parts of that road.

I was watching several cars on the hwy here the other day thinking about this thread, and noticed their wheels hardly move at all. and our roads aren't the smoothest.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:27 AM   #285
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Quote:
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It's my car/video. Actually, not even my grandma thinks that road is rough.
is that your wagon? What's the spring/shock setup?
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:40 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by joltdudeuc View Post
It mat not be rough, but it sure isn't smooth. I mean, it rolls, has dips, small potholes, etc. you went over a small curb or something at the end there, and had as much droop happen as in 2 or 3 parts of that road.
Ah, somewhere in this thread, I list exactly what's going on where. That last bit right at the end is me driving slowly into a gas station.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joltdudeuc View Post
is that your wagon? What's the spring/shock setup?
D-Specs and STi springs.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:58 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
With 10k, they'd be even worse on the street. 10k is honestly stupid on the street. There's no streetable tire on earth that needs 10k rates. You should ALWAYS pick your spring rates based on what your tires need, not what you fancy.
I'm sorry there are streetable tires on earth that will benefit from having 10 k springs, depending on the rest of their setup. Example if it was soley based on a tire why run differnt spring rates front to back. There are many other factors that I know u are experienced to know, which come into play when choosing spring rates.

Btw I'm talking about a streetable tire that is on more track focused car.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:07 AM   #288
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10k springs on the street are pointless, but for a car on the track with street tires they aren't too high at all as long as you have the valving to support them. It's pretty amazing how compliant a car can be with great dampers, even on high spring rates. Especially once you throw a cage into the equation.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:32 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
With 10k, they'd be even worse on the street. 10k is honestly stupid on the street. There's no streetable tire on earth that needs 10k rates. You should ALWAYS pick your spring rates based on what your tires need, not what you fancy.
When do I drive my car on the street? Almost never. You stick to tuning for your neighborhood toe ghey, and I'll stick to the track
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #290
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Please do. Because you keep arguing that what's good for the track is good for the street.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:57 PM   #291
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Please do. Because you keep arguing that what's good for the track is good for the street.
go ahead and quote where i said that
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:18 PM   #292
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The whole spring rate vs tire type isn't quite as cut an dry as one thinks. Yes, for a road course, ideally you choose spring rate and roll bar size depending on the level of lateral grip your tires provide and the balance you seek. However, for example, in autox some of those rules get tossed out the window. Mainly due to the type of driving that particular motorsport requires (i.e. violent transitions when compared to the more smooth steady state stuff on a road course). Folks racing on a road course have to incorporate tire performance longevity into the equation and higher spring rates put a larger load and more heat on tires, reducing their grip levels sooner. On shorter autox courses, tires going off after an hour on course is not as much a concern. So they tend to run much higher spring rates (to control the car in the transitions) than one would normally choose on the tires they would run.

Our problem is emulating what the "racers" are doing and attempting to apply that to our street driven cars. Its, once again, an amazing testament to the power of marketing when we see who the fast guys are, and want to run what they run...on the street! Because, um, its a faster setup...for going on the togue run to starbucks.

In the end, ideally we should pick the right tool for the job. But its rarely that simple when we incorporate our egos and fantasies.
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:32 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
go ahead and quote where i said that
You keep making references to your track setup and others track setups in a discussion which has for the most part tried to stay centered around street applications.
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:36 PM   #294
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Discomfort does not necessarily have to come with high spring rates.
I've been able to tune my BC's w/ 12/10k spring to as comfortable as stock.
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:38 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
Discomfort does not necessarily have to come with high spring rates.
I've been able to tune my BC's w/ 12/10k spring to as comfortable as stock.
Dude, riding a stage coach is as comfortable as a stock STi
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:01 PM   #296
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Dude, riding a stage coach is as comfortable as a stock STi
Lol, not quite.
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:50 PM   #297
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Pretty damn close. Stock dampers are not matched to a correct spring. Bobblehead FTL
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:54 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
The whole spring rate vs tire type isn't quite as cut an dry as one thinks. Yes, for a road course, ideally you choose spring rate and roll bar size depending on the level of lateral grip your tires provide and the balance you seek. However, for example, in autox some of those rules get tossed out the window. Mainly due to the type of driving that particular motorsport requires (i.e. violent transitions when compared to the more smooth steady state stuff on a road course). Folks racing on a road course have to incorporate tire performance longevity into the equation and higher spring rates put a larger load and more heat on tires, reducing their grip levels sooner. On shorter autox courses, tires going off after an hour on course is not as much a concern. So they tend to run much higher spring rates (to control the car in the transitions) than one would normally choose on the tires they would run.

Our problem is emulating what the "racers" are doing and attempting to apply that to our street driven cars. Its, once again, an amazing testament to the power of marketing when we see who the fast guys are, and want to run what they run...on the street! Because, um, its a faster setup...for going on the togue run to starbucks.

In the end, ideally we should pick the right tool for the job. But its rarely that simple when we incorporate our egos and fantasies.
Good post Arnie, and I agree. But you didn't insult anyone in your post, maybe you forgot to throw a jab in or two?

Seriously, thanks for keeping it civil and productive. It gets out of control in here way too much.

- drew
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Old 02-15-2010, 08:41 PM   #299
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Pretty damn close. Stock dampers are not matched to a correct spring. Bobblehead FTL
Wrong. Bobblehead is a result of the seats.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:29 PM   #300
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Wrong. Bobblehead is a result of the seats.
No, seats are a part of the issue, but not it entirely
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