Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday September 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-2010, 12:40 PM   #326
STi-MAN
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70252
Join Date: Sep 2004
Vehicle:
05 STI
blue

Default

^arnie i'm on the same page as you as well.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
STi-MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:14 PM   #327
AndyRoo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20952
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
MINI & Datsun
BRG & White

Default

You should also note that the dedicated race cars like that ALMS Porsche using low travel set-ups likely do not use the same set-up at a bumpy track like Sebring. Their set-ups are very track dependent and not a one size fits all approach like most of us are stuck with.

- andrew
AndyRoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:45 PM   #328
STi-MAN
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70252
Join Date: Sep 2004
Vehicle:
05 STI
blue

Default

^which is, exactly my point. they must use a low travel setup for certain tracks because there is a need for it.. if massive amount of travel was so important for all situations.. they would use the same setup for sebring as toronto where that picture was taken.

I'd still like to see the longer travel struts which you speak about tho... have a link?
STi-MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #329
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Consider with those professional race cars, though, that even the Porsche is using significant amounts of downforce. While, by professional racing standards, they don't have much aero, they still have enough sensitivity to height off the ground that even a small amount of change in ride height or especially a small change in pitch can affect the car terribly. They may find that it's more important to reduce total travel and suffer the mechanical loss of grip from bottoming out or coming off the tarmac than it is to suffer a ballistic interlude at the conclusion of which they relieve themselves of excess velocity via an ablative technique because the car had enough travel to pitch up a degree.



It's all tradeoffs. It's just better to start from a condition of excess travel and limit it to make compromises for other systems than it is to have too little travel and not be able to do anything about it.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 08:30 PM   #330
rjrutzky
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30367
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: nashville, tn
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
NASA SE PTB Champ

Default

I'm wondering if droop coincides with spring rate in creating a damper. When spring rates get over 500 lbs, you tend to not see as much droop even on expensive setups. Conversely on a soft sprung setup you tend see a lot. Wouldn't stiff springs have to have a lot of preload, so when they unspring (I just made that up) the springs don't rattle around? I'm sure the Forumla SAE team can help me out on this one.
rjrutzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 10:29 PM   #331
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I'm wondering if droop coincides with spring rate in creating a damper. When spring rates get over 500 lbs, you tend to not see as much droop even on expensive setups. Conversely on a soft sprung setup you tend see a lot. Wouldn't stiff springs have to have a lot of preload, so when they unspring (I just made that up) the springs don't rattle around? I'm sure the Forumla SAE team can help me out on this one.
Depends on if they have helper springs or not. I know my T2's will handle 600lb springs but that's pretty much at the top end limit of the damper and I still have ok travel (not as much as AST but more than any of the cheapo coilovers).

Andrew made a good point about track specific setups. An uber smooth track won't require nearly as much travel as some of the more bumpy track (Sebring to steal Andrews example again). For the street though...the more travel the better.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 02:27 AM   #332
STi-MAN
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70252
Join Date: Sep 2004
Vehicle:
05 STI
blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post

Andrew made a good point about track specific setups. An uber smooth track won't require nearly as much travel as some of the more bumpy track (Sebring to steal Andrews example again). For the street though...the more travel the better.
Yes this is what me and Arnie have been sort of thinking the whole time.. the right tool for the right job.

also seeing some picture of the porsche alms car pitted at sebring.. not much more travel noticeable. I'm thinking travel is the same just damper changes and maybe spring changes.
STi-MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 02:53 AM   #333
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Vehicle:
98 2.5GT
my wheels fit

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I'm wondering if droop coincides with spring rate in creating a damper. When spring rates get over 500 lbs, you tend to not see as much droop even on expensive setups. Conversely on a soft sprung setup you tend see a lot. Wouldn't stiff springs have to have a lot of preload, so when they unspring (I just made that up) the springs don't rattle around? I'm sure the Forumla SAE team can help me out on this one.
a stiffer spring will be compressed less at ride height, so there will be less droop. You end up where your droop is almost entirely taken up by the helper or the spring unseating. And adding pre-load will reduce droop travel.
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 06:21 AM   #334
rjrutzky
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30367
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: nashville, tn
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
NASA SE PTB Champ

Default

I'm curious if T2s with 600lb springs actually have more droop than cheapos like say Teins or BCs with the same spring rate. How much more droop? Sounds like the spring rate impacts droop more than the coilovers. DO the coilovers have much say in the matter at all?
rjrutzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 07:48 AM   #335
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi-MAN View Post
Yes this is what me and Arnie have been sort of thinking the whole time.. the right tool for the right job.

also seeing some picture of the porsche alms car pitted at sebring.. not much more travel noticeable. I'm thinking travel is the same just damper changes and maybe spring changes.
Most of us have been saying the right tool for the right job just not as eloquently. Spring rates will change at a place like Sebring so droop levels will change as well. I've heard them talk about suspension travel during the 12hrs before and about how it's such a PITA at that track due to the low ride heights and the insane bumpiness as tracks go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I'm curious if T2s with 600lb springs actually have more droop than cheapos like say Teins or BCs with the same spring rate. How much more droop? Sounds like the spring rate impacts droop more than the coilovers. DO the coilovers have much say in the matter at all?
I'd be shocked if they didn't. I'm at 500lb springs in the front and have quite a bit of droop travel just from the helper spring alone not to mention when the spring uncompresses. boost junkie is the only one I know of that's run 600lb springs on the KW's. He did that part of last season before switching to JRZ's.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 07:51 AM   #336
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I'm curious if T2s with 600lb springs actually have more droop than cheapos like say Teins or BCs with the same spring rate. How much more droop? Sounds like the spring rate impacts droop more than the coilovers. DO the coilovers have much say in the matter at all?
First of all, your question makes no sense as written. "The coilovers" includes the spring. However, I'm going to assume you're mis-speaking and you mean the dampers or struts, rather than the coilovers. Yes, the damper sets the total droop travel from ride height. It's also one of two things that can set the total bump travel from ride height. The droop of a coilover is always the compression of the main spring at ride height plus the total travel of the helper spring. That's why it's impossible to create a coilover with adequate droop travel and a high spring rate without using a helper spring. The damper also can set total bump travel if the damper piston bottoms out before the main spring is compressed to its solid height.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 09:59 AM   #337
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

its not impossible, it just requires a rate differential greater than what is commonly available on progressive rate springs. In which we at this point have only thought about linear rates from what I can tell. But eliminating the helper spring doesnt yeild much either so thats why its probably not been done to commercial sucess. Then again, lets look at a highly progressive suspension system that is air sprung.. I like air springs. They work awesome! They are applied to mtn bikes, snowmobiles, fourwheelers, dune buggy, etc etc. Why has no one created an air strut? Not talking about airbags here either.


We can choose between open bath like Marvin Shaw shocks, or closed like a Fox float. Open bath gets you a little more volume/stroke = a little more droop when compared to the same pressures as a sealed valve body airsleeve like the float. ie 60 psi in the float yields oh so roughly 180lb spring and currently they can handle 150ish psi. Where as the MSS can run up to 800 psi i think.

http://www.marvinshawshocks.com/

Just imagine.. we have used these extensively in snowmobile racing and every feature abou tthe shocks performance can be adjusted. They even use nitrogen to fill up to resist STP deviations.
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 10:48 AM   #338
Sk8er
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 129045
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Vehicle:
2004 Subaru WRX Sti
Blue

Default

Tein is the way to go.
Sk8er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 10:59 AM   #339
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk8er View Post
Tein is the way to go.
While I value your opinion, and I recognize your right to have your own opinion I must respectfully disagree.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 12:34 PM   #340
cessna152
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 7523
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Central NJ
Vehicle:
1999 Impreza 2.5 RS
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk8er View Post
Tein is the way to go.
Gutted and custom revalved Tein bodies are the way to go.
cessna152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 12:58 PM   #341
AndyRoo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20952
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
MINI & Datsun
BRG & White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk8er View Post
Tein is the way to go.
How does this contribute anything to the discussion?
AndyRoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:12 PM   #342
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

Because we all know TEIN is teh shizzle fo hizzle!
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:14 PM   #343
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
Because we all know TEIN is teh shizzle fo hizzle!
No way bro, TEIN is just another Megan wannabe.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:17 PM   #344
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

Ouch!
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:19 PM   #345
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

But I can't bash too much on Tein, I have a set of Basics on my Festiva. Only things made that will fit.



These actually have more droop than the original post by TIC.
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:20 PM   #346
AndyRoo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20952
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
MINI & Datsun
BRG & White

Default



nothing like a tein shout out to kill a thread.

edit: need more pics arnie!
AndyRoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:21 PM   #347
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
But I can't bash too much on Tein, I have a set of Basics on my Festiva. Only things made that will fit.



These actually have more droop than the original post by TIC.
Dude, someone needs to pay you better if you can't afford wheel studs
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:22 PM   #348
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

Got a raise!



BTW, that red painted caliper added a buttdyno proven 5hp. Just need to put my TEIN stickers on the car for an added 10hp.
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:25 PM   #349
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post


nothing like a tein shout out to kill a thread.

edit: need more pics arnie!
What the hell, since we are taking a bit of a commercial break for our sponsors:

Fetus Mobile Racing






Apologies for the completely off topic random image posting guys!
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2010, 01:29 PM   #350
Blown95ImpalaSS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87629
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Ktown
Vehicle:
2013 Focus ST

Default

me want that festiva...my neighbor has a disassembled EDM turbo escort block...mmm

what will its motorsport of choice be arnie?
Blown95ImpalaSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GC Kit and droop jeisen Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 02-15-2010 08:18 AM
back to stock sale coilovers and other parts cheap mrguppy MAIC Private Classifieds 14 10-13-2008 02:46 PM
Springing options for coilovers - attacking stroke and droop travel Scooby921 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 05-10-2007 11:41 AM
FS: Brand New Coilovers and Shocks Cheap! wildchild Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 2 08-01-2004 07:46 PM
Cheap coilover kits on eBay B-Kerr Brakes, Steering & Suspension 11 05-31-2003 12:40 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.