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Old 02-20-2010, 02:07 AM   #376
STi-MAN
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Originally Posted by trick3d View Post
How about you read the thread!
Wait who the hell are you? i could care less what you say.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:10 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
the front is worse.




It just shows a lack of travel. Travel is good. It's not a problem on buttery smooth roads, but those don't actually exist. Even tracks are generally pretty bumpy.
I wonder what the F1 guys think of that comment....
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Old 02-20-2010, 07:31 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Arnie View Post


Why are you wasting perfectly good jackstands on a festiva? Be a man, hold it up yourself.


Quote:
I wonder what the F1 guys think of that comment....
They probably think "yeah, sure, when you don't have a bazillion pounds of downforce and gigantic sticky tires..."
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Old 02-21-2010, 01:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Kenji815 View Post
sure doesn't look like AMS Evo has much of suspension travel on their suspension setup..
and their Evo X is one of the most dominating car on the circuit.

Sure i know you can't compare street car to race car. Race track have far better road surface.
but my point is you can't judge quality and performance just base on the coilover stoke length.


I agree whole heartedly. Never have I seen a community as obsessed with droop travel as in the STi community. People here seem to incorrectly correlate quality with damper stroke. I agree that sufficient amount of droop travel is highly essential for ride comfort, but it is not a good benchmark for quality and performance.

I have been building and racing auto-cross vehicles for both myself and my customers for over twenty years, and I can say that it is extremely unfair to judge the quality of a set of coilovers based on the amount of travel the dampers have. That's just grossly unfair. I am not saying that coilovers from BC, Megan, OBX, Tein Basics etc are any good. They are still poor quality coilovers by many standards. But there are still high quality coilovers out there that are designed not with droop travel in mind. Cusco, Zeal, HKS, etc all have respectable droop travel, but they are still somewhat limited compared to stock. The coilovers from Japan are built with ultimate grip in mind and are capable of insane amount of grip. Yet these coilovers are never considered to be of poor quality.

What some people fail to comprehend is the fact that having an overly stiff anti-roll bar also reduces suspension movement, which also reduces wheel articulation and droop travel. Even if the dampers allow for an abundant amount of droop travel, the stiff sway bars still have the tendancy to limit droop travel. I don't see anybody blaming sway bars for that

What I see is that one vendor has pieced together a set of coilovers that has more droop travel than the competitors'. This vendor then uses droop travel as a major selling point to sell its coilovers and to bash the competitors coilovers, probably to compensate for the fact that the coilovers this vendor sells has extremely limited adjustability. From reading countless of threads on various Subaru forums, I believe the "hype" for droop travel originated from one internet vendor that relentlessly preaches droop travel. By correlating quality and performance with damper travel, this vendor is preventing consumers with limited suspension knowledge from making informed decisions. This is a dishonest and poor business practice, in my opinion, just to market some coilovers.


Here are some pictures of VERY FAST cars with little to no droop travel:

F430 Challenger on Stock Suspension (The Scuderia is just as bad):


TVR Droop limited by giant Sway bars:


911 Riding on Ohlins:


911:


911 on Bilstein (I believe)


850 Wagon:


Crawford STi with Tein:


I bet that the tuners of any of the race cars above know more about suspension tuning than an internet retailer.

Last edited by Scott-Tuning; 02-21-2010 at 01:56 AM. Reason: Added pictures :)
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:06 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by STiRA-435 View Post
Although I don't have anything to add to this thread I am dealing with droop travel problems myself.

I remember a couple months ago watching the following video of the 555 Impreza rally car and scratching my head as to why (when I assume there is so much travel available) does the car have a (tarmac) setup with so little droop. I realize that for the majority of the time the inside tyres are making contact with the ground but if you watch closely when the inside rear leaves the ground you can only see around <2" of droop.

YouTube- Supreme Subaru Impreza 555 - tribute with pure engine sounds

See 1:20, 2:23
The lack of droop travel on rally cars setup for tarmac is caused by the extremely stiff anti-roll bar. The dampers on these cars are capable of great droop travel. It's just that when these rally cars are setup for tarmac, their suspension articulation is significantly reduced by the anti-roll bars.

Sweeping one inside wheel off the ground helps the car rotate very easily.
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Old 02-21-2010, 06:17 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I agree whole heartedly. Never have I seen a community as obsessed with droop travel as in the STi community. People here seem to incorrectly correlate quality with damper stroke. I agree that sufficient amount of droop travel is highly essential for ride comfort, but it is not a good benchmark for quality and performance...

I bet that the tuners of any of the race cars above know more about suspension tuning than an internet retailer.
If we are talking about primarily street driven cars rather than the race setups you show above, would you agree that more stroke travel is beneficial in keeping the tire in contact with the road and therefore provides more traction?

I agree on the big sways. Contemplating increasing my rear spring rate and decreasing sway diameter to help avoid lifting the rears.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:13 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I have been building and racing auto-cross vehicles for both myself and my customers for over twenty years, and I can say that it is extremely unfair to judge the quality of a set of coilovers based on the amount of travel the dampers have. That's just grossly unfair.
Extremely unfair, or grossly unfair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
What I see is that one vendor has pieced together a set of coilovers that has more droop travel than the competitors'. This vendor then uses droop travel as a major selling point to sell its coilovers and to bash the competitors coilovers, probably to compensate for the fact that the coilovers this vendor sells has extremely limited adjustability. From reading countless of threads on various Subaru forums, I believe the "hype" for droop travel originated from one internet vendor that relentlessly preaches droop travel. By correlating quality and performance with damper travel, this vendor is preventing consumers with limited suspension knowledge from making informed decisions. This is a dishonest and poor business practice, in my opinion, just to market some coilovers.
Scott, how much of the thread have you actually read? All of it?

How much time have you spent hanging out in the suspension forum just soaking it all in?

The reason this thread exists, IMHO, is because of certain vendors billing the cheap coilovers as a great solution to people's *daily* needs. I think plenty of smart people, including the ones starting the thread and posting here, have said plenty of times that you can go fast around a track on the cheap stuff. For instance, sometimes roll stiffness is more important than damper quality.

However, the vast majority of people on here have (at best) a dual purpose car. I have a daily driver, but I still somehow put 15K on my WRX last year, between winter and driving to far away autox events. Many of us have been down the "cheap coilover" road (for me it was JIC) and realized that while yes you can go fast on them that does not mean they should be installed on a street car unless you want to put up with those tradeoffs ALL THE TIME.

And I'd still rather have travel for a dedicated track/autox car for reasons discussed in the thread... tracks have curbing, autox has plenty of lots that are not perfectly flat. Not to mention driving there. I mean, in most cases the only thing you are giving up in order to get a higher quality damper and more travel is money - basically the "good, fast, cheap - pick two" rule. Personally I can live with that and have voted with my wallet.

And on a totally unrelated note I ran most of last year with no rear swaybar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I bet that the tuners of any of the race cars above know more about suspension tuning than an internet retailer.
Yeah, and those TIC monkeys know nothing about building fast cars... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1837718

Have you looked into how many of the cars you posted are sponsored? Further, the Teins on the Crawford car are not exactly cheap.

As for TIC being vendors out here to shill products and not help the community... Your post demonstrates clearly that you aren't very in tune with what happens on here. I would recommend a little bit of lurking before you go zinging established vendors who regularly give people tons of free advice (advice that often does not end in the customer purchasing anything) and whom I firmly believe have the community's best interests in mind.

John
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:27 AM   #383
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Am i the only one who caught the WINK? I thnk hes getting you guys fired up for no reason at all.. lol
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:37 AM   #384
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I wonder what the F1 guys think of that comment....
F1 track selection is extremely difficult. It's one of the reasons why so few tracks can actually host an F1 event...just not smooth enough. Coupled with paddock limitation and whatnot very few tracks especially in the US could even consider holding an F1 event.

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Originally Posted by Dubstar112 View Post
Am i the only one who caught the WINK? I thnk hes getting you guys fired up for no reason at all.. lol
That wink was a smart-ass comment to say "look, the people that started this thread are just internet vendors and they don't have a clue what they're talking about." Or it was to say "look, I'm so smart because I realized they were an internet vendor and that you're all retarded for not knowing that."
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:05 AM   #385
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So why do we need a good amount of droop travel when driving on the street again? Just to keep the tires on the ground? Who's going to be going that fast anyways to need the max amount of grip on public roads....
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:40 AM   #386
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So why do we need a good amount of droop travel when driving on the street again? Just to keep the tires on the ground? Who's going to be going that fast anyways to need the max amount of grip on public roads....
Because you can skitter sideways across bumpy surfaces even at posted limits. Max grip doesn't necessarily mean driving at excessive speed. Keeping down as large a possible contact patch is a safety issue as well. Rain?
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:00 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I agree whole heartedly. Never have I seen a community as obsessed with droop travel as in the STi community. People here seem to incorrectly correlate quality with damper stroke. I agree that sufficient amount of droop travel is highly essential for ride comfort, but it is not a good benchmark for quality and performance.
Not always, but it's a pretty good indicator to start to look for other problems.

Quote:
I have been building and racing auto-cross vehicles for both myself and my customers for over twenty years, and I can say that it is extremely unfair to judge the quality of a set of coilovers based on the amount of travel the dampers have. That's just grossly unfair. I am not saying that coilovers from BC, Megan, OBX, Tein Basics etc are any good. They are still poor quality coilovers by many standards. But there are still high quality coilovers out there that are designed not with droop travel in mind. Cusco, Zeal, HKS, etc all have respectable droop travel, but they are still somewhat limited compared to stock. The coilovers from Japan are built with ultimate grip in mind and are capable of insane amount of grip. Yet these coilovers are never considered to be of poor quality.
Which cars have you been building? I'm curious. Are the double duty cars?

As for those other reputable brands. I'm familiar with them. My biggest problem with them was the valving. We can start a thread on that if you want, but I believe it was covered a few years ago on iwsti.

Quote:
What some people fail to comprehend is the fact that having an overly stiff anti-roll bar also reduces suspension movement, which also reduces wheel articulation and droop travel. Even if the dampers allow for an abundant amount of droop travel, the stiff sway bars still have the tendancy to limit droop travel. I don't see anybody blaming sway bars for that
I believe that was covered a while ago in this thread.

Quote:
What I see is that one vendor has pieced together a set of coilovers that has more droop travel than the competitors'. This vendor then uses droop travel as a major selling point to sell its coilovers and to bash the competitors coilovers, probably to compensate for the fact that the coilovers this vendor sells has extremely limited adjustability. From reading countless of threads on various Subaru forums, I believe the "hype" for droop travel originated from one internet vendor that relentlessly preaches droop travel. By correlating quality and performance with damper travel, this vendor is preventing consumers with limited suspension knowledge from making informed decisions. This is a dishonest and poor business practice, in my opinion, just to market some coilovers.
There's more to it than just droop. Bottom line is they are junk, and my feelings of travel is just one portion of it that causes those feelings.

What I see is a guy who has no idea any of the background of the vendor. Do some more research there.

Oh, and as for the pics below. I'll let you know the first time I happen to see one of those cruising down to my local grocery store.

-Clint

Quote:
Here are some pictures of VERY FAST cars with little to no droop travel:

F430 Challenger on Stock Suspension (The Scuderia is just as bad):


TVR Droop limited by giant Sway bars:


911 Riding on Ohlins:


911:


911 on Bilstein (I believe)


850 Wagon:


Crawford STi with Tein:
Quote:
I bet that the tuners of any of the race cars above know more about suspension tuning than an internet retailer.
Someone usually comes along about once a year and says this. I guess it's that time of year. I guessing we'll see you at a track some time this season. What car will you be running? We'll be sure to say hi.

Last edited by Turn in Concepts; 02-21-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:03 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
So why do we need a good amount of droop travel when driving on the street again? Just to keep the tires on the ground? Who's going to be going that fast anyways to need the max amount of grip on public roads....
A tire in the air generates zero grip.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:50 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
So why do we need a good amount of droop travel when driving on the street again? Just to keep the tires on the ground? Who's going to be going that fast anyways to need the max amount of grip on public roads....
watch the video on the first page and then come back and ask this question if you still don't get it.
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:14 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
blah blah... I know more than all of you..
It obvious you didn't actually read the thread since your so busy building race the cars. The point of this thread is NOT racecars.

People are so narrow minded that they keep looking at a racecar setup to see what they should do on the street. That is stupidity.

You are not familiar with neither the discussion (as you obviously didn't read it all) nor the vendor that started the discussion, so your comments really have no merit.
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:55 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
Why are you wasting perfectly good jackstands on a festiva? Be a man, hold it up yourself.
Uh, hello, my wife is holding up the other end of the car with her bare hands. I needed to get back to take the pic. Unfortunately she doesn't have the muscle to hold up the whole car by herself, hence the jackstand!
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:25 PM   #392
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Yikes! Some fighten' words in this post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I agree whole heartedly. Never have I seen a community as obsessed with droop travel as in the STi community. People here seem to incorrectly correlate quality with damper stroke. I agree that sufficient amount of droop travel is highly essential for ride comfort, but it is not a good benchmark for quality and performance.

I have been building and racing auto-cross vehicles for both myself and my customers for over twenty years, and I can say that it is extremely unfair to judge the quality of a set of coilovers based on the amount of travel the dampers have. That's just grossly unfair. I am not saying that coilovers from BC, Megan, OBX, Tein Basics etc are any good. They are still poor quality coilovers by many standards. But there are still high quality coilovers out there that are designed not with droop travel in mind. Cusco, Zeal, HKS, etc all have respectable droop travel, but they are still somewhat limited compared to stock. The coilovers from Japan are built with ultimate grip in mind and are capable of insane amount of grip. Yet these coilovers are never considered to be of poor quality.
I agree, travel alone is not necessarily the end all indicator of a good performing setup. Much more to it than that, like valving, quality of materials used, internal engineering not visible to the eye, etc. Certain brands don't compare in quality of materials and construction when compared to specific brands like Cusco or Zeal. HKS I'd personally lump in to the BC world. And its the valving of the japanese that many here have come to have issue with over the years. Its, frankly, harsh on anything but glass smooth roads. Some brands are starting to make some headway in response to the market's continuing education on things suspension and they've "softened up" their setups. Making them more "euro-like", more supple but still controlled.

However, the WRX/STi community's current obsession with travel stems from the simple fact that the car is AWD and especially in autox situations, the diffs don't seem to like 3 wheeling. Hence, the desire to keep all 4 wheels on the ground as much as possible. Whether or not this is "hurting" ultimate speed is still being explored on the web and on the course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post

What some people fail to comprehend is the fact that having an overly stiff anti-roll bar also reduces suspension movement, which also reduces wheel articulation and droop travel. Even if the dampers allow for an abundant amount of droop travel, the stiff sway bars still have the tendancy to limit droop travel. I don't see anybody blaming sway bars for that
Good for you for being in the shop more than on the forums like the rest of us geeks. But, for the record and your education, the topic of large bars, reduced suspension independence, etc. has been discussed for years, ad nauseum on this board. One thing not brought up too much though is the other side to your stiff spring vs stiff swaybar debate, and that's too stiff a spring reduce vertical compliance and when a car hits a bump the whole chassis is knocked into the air as a result. For me, that's just as much a lack of independence as well. Not to mention the heat issues that large springs can have on tires over longer runs. But personally, I'm not really a this camp vs that camp, I prefer a more balanced approach. Bit stiffer spring, bit stiffer bar, bit stickier tire, raise the stiffness of the proper component depending on the course and conditions. Making sweeping philosophical suspension setup statements like "stiffer springs good, big bars bad" or vice versa", IMO, is, at the least, short sighted and narrow minded, or at the most, simply arrogant, bordering on ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post

What I see is that one vendor has pieced together a set of coilovers that has more droop travel than the competitors'. This vendor then uses droop travel as a major selling point to sell its coilovers and to bash the competitors coilovers, probably to compensate for the fact that the coilovers this vendor sells has extremely limited adjustability. From reading countless of threads on various Subaru forums, I believe the "hype" for droop travel originated from one internet vendor that relentlessly preaches droop travel. By correlating quality and performance with damper travel, this vendor is preventing consumers with limited suspension knowledge from making informed decisions. This is a dishonest and poor business practice, in my opinion, just to market some coilovers.
I will grant you that it was probably not a good idea to start any thread, as a vendor or manufacturer, on ripping on another company's product. It isn't good business practice and hopefully TIC will learn from it. No big deal. Though they mentioned no brand specifically, from the pics we could see who's it was. Also, probably not a good idea to equate lack of droop to a coilover's quality. As has been mentioned already on this thread (please go through and read the whole thread, ignoring my Fetus mobile posts ) there are several coilover manufacturers of the highest quality like Íhlins and Moton, etc. using low or zero droop setups on race cars. However, the hype for more travel isn't just a current trend. its also something that has been discussed for several years on this forum (pre TIC) and but it is a feature that TIC wanted to integrate into the design of their coilovers. They've had lots of experience with the aforementioned japanese brands and, in the development of their stuff, found that more travel was beneficial for a car seeing double duty (track and road); that you didn't have to give up great road performance and comfort for speed on the track.

But preventing consumers from making educated buying decisions? C'mon, that is ridiculous. This isn't TIC's website. They aren't the only game in town. They put out information on their product, just like anyone. its up to the consumer to do their due diligence and research what's out there and see what's right for them. If they are suspension noobs, they can post their questions and there will be several dozen opinions about what they should use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
probably to compensate for the fact that the coilovers this vendor sells has extremely limited adjustability.
It sounds like you have no personal experience with their coilovers and are not familiar with the specific spec. As far as "extremely limited adjustability" goes...what would you find "limited" in a coilover? What bells and whistles would you consider having in a setup that makes it "extremely adjustable"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Tuning View Post
I bet that the tuners of any of the race cars above know more about suspension tuning than an internet retailer.
I would hope so! Its their job to set that chassis up, not sell parts online! but there are numerous internet retailers out there who do race, who do campaign cars who do have a very deep understanding of chassis setup. Turner Motorsports, RCE, Mueller/RRE , Robispec, and yes, TIC.




But now, let me ask you a few things, since you have such a deep understanding and experience of chassis setup.

Since this topic has come up, I've been doing some reading on zero/low droop setups. Can you explain to us their purpose? What advantages do they have? How does a car react when one uses this type of setup? How can we use that to our advantage on the Impreza chassis? What are the tradeoffs (for street and track)?

Looking forward to your feedback.

Last edited by Arnie; 02-21-2010 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:10 PM   #393
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....and the thread is back on.....

I just want to address the "street car" and "dual purpose" car arguments. Why are you worried about street performance? Can't get around that school bus on the back roads, because your cheap coilovers don't have any droop? For the first time in a long time, I drove a stock suspensioned STI on the street and it was quite capable. My stiff, non-drooping, track set up car felt better though. Point is that I don't see any need in going over 6/10ths on the street, which is why I don't understand the "dual purpose" argument.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:29 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
....and the thread is back on.....

I just want to address the "street car" and "dual purpose" car arguments. Why are you worried about street performance? Can't get around that school bus on the back roads, because your cheap coilovers don't have any droop? For the first time in a long time, I drove a stock suspensioned STI on the street and it was quite capable. My stiff, non-drooping, track set up car felt better though. Point is that I don't see any need in going over 6/10ths on the street, which is why I don't understand the "dual purpose" argument.
Because some people can't afford two cars or have significant others that won't allow it. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:30 PM   #395
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A setup with sufficient travel and proper damping will be more comfortable at any "tenth". A setup that's travel-limited, valved badly, and overly stiff will feel uncomfortable and fatiguing at any "tenth". Not to mention that the stiff, poorly valved, and crashy setup will be less forgiving of driver error. We all like to think we're god's gift to driving, but when it's 3am, raining, you haven't slept in 20 hours, and you're trying to get to the hospital where your girlfriend has just been admitted, it's nice to have a car that'll be tolerant of driver error is important. Yes, I really consider all of that before making a suspension change. There've been changes that I've elected not to make, or made and then rolled back, because, while there were awesome fun when really pressing on, I was worried about what would happen on that sleepless rainy night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
I just want to address the "street car" and "dual purpose" car arguments. Why are you worried about street performance? ... Point is that I don't see any need in going over 6/10ths on the street, which is why I don't understand the "dual purpose" argument.
Because you don't always choose what tenth you're driving at. Sometimes life makes the decision for you.

A setup with good handling can also make the difference between driving around at 3/10ths and then not being able to avoid the little girl that rode out into the street and driving around at 3/10ths and being able to avoid the minivan and ran a stop sign.I can say without any doubt that I am only alive today because I had properly prepared the car and spent time and money on driver education and was able to drive through and around an accident that would surely have been fatal.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:48 PM   #396
AndyRoo
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More droop on a street car isn't just for more "street grip"......it improves ride quality.

- drew
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:11 PM   #397
rjrutzky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Because you don't always choose what tenth you're driving at. Sometimes life makes the decision for you.

A setup with good handling can also make the difference between driving around at 3/10ths and then not being able to avoid the little girl that rode out into the street and driving around at 3/10ths and being able to avoid the minivan and ran a stop sign.I can say without any doubt that I am only alive today because I had properly prepared the car and spent time and money on driver education and was able to drive through and around an accident that would surely have been fatal.
oh my god. inadequate droop is now deadly. I do believe I have heard it all. Screeech, screech...whew, glad I had that droop, or three people would be dead! Thanks for the comedy gold
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:14 PM   #398
ButtDyno
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I can't speak for everyone, but my dual purpose car has two modes:

* The part where I pull up to the line and drive like an idiot for ~60 seconds
* All the other times

In the 2nd mode I don't especially care how the car handles. I just want it not to kill me and to be somewhat comfortable. Travel helps the comfort part.

:shrug:
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:22 PM   #399
sigurd
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I now agree. I was going around a corner and my lack of droop caused me to smash into a bum pushing a cart full of aluminum cans.

He said dude whats the big deal dont you know you cant be driving that many "tenths" when you got no droop. Im just a bum and I know that.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:51 PM   #400
stidoc
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Originally Posted by rjrutzky View Post
oh my god. inadequate droop is now deadly. I do believe I have heard it all. Screeech, screech...whew, glad I had that droop, or three people would be dead! Thanks for the comedy gold
What a tard comment.

Probably time to lock this thing up.
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