Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday October 23, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2010, 09:14 PM   #126
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
^^^^but a really stiff front sway bar could do that (lift inside front tire) even with a lot of droop travel.
No, a really stiff sway bar will make that even worse. Sway bars unload the inside tire. That's how they reduce roll.

Not to mention that a sway bar will make the car even more upset by mid-corner bumps, creating a problem similar to not having enough travel.


EDIT: Re-read what you said and you said what I said. I'm going to leave my statement in case other people read the way I did at first.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:14 PM   #127
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

BDI: what kind of swaybars are you running?
If droop is indeed strut limited a helper spring may help.
Usually Subarus lift rear wheels, which is never good for power delivery.
P.S. 600# springs on street tires?!

Boost Junkie: I mentioned motion ratios as that is one of the factors that effects strut travel.
I thought this was a Suspension Tech section. I always prefer more technical talk and less BS.
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:15 PM   #128
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
^^^^but a really stiff front sway bar could do that (lift inside front tire) even with a lot of droop travel.
Exactly!
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:18 PM   #129
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
If droop is indeed strut limited a helper spring may help.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Helper springs prevent the main spring from rattling loose when the suspension is drooping. They don't magically change the travel of the damper.

Quote:
Usually Subarus lift rear wheels, which is never good for power delivery.
No, they're perfectly happy to lift either. Mine picks up a front wheel all the time.

Quote:
P.S. 600# springs on street tires?!
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. There's no justification for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
Exactly!
Yup, just another reason big front sways aren't always a good idea.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:21 PM   #130
09rexwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 216135
Join Date: Jul 2009
Vehicle:
2011 Civic SI
STX #66, 06 S2000 STR 180

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post


Yup, just another reason big front sways aren't always a good idea.
Haha, you disagreed with my comment 2 posts ago and then agreed with it .

EDIT: I now see your edit ....oops.
09rexwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:25 PM   #131
bdi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66033
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Dergo, CA
Vehicle:
05 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
^^^^but a really stiff front sway bar could do that (lift inside front tire) even with a lot of droop travel.
Totally agree. I was mainly just trying to use a picture to prove a point of what the lack of droop travel can look like.

Yes 600lb springs with street tires. Its a auto-x dedicated car and im on the softer side. In that pic...it does have a 27/29mm fsb set to 27mm and a stock rsb. But note...I have experienced the samething with my 24/26mm fsb...limited droop is just that...limit droop.
bdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:30 PM   #132
bdi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66033
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Dergo, CA
Vehicle:
05 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Helper springs prevent the main spring from rattling loose when the suspension is drooping. They don't magically change the travel of the damper.


No, they're perfectly happy to lift either. Mine picks up a front wheel all the time.


Yeah, I'm with you on that one. There's no justification for that.


Yup, just another reason big front sways aren't always a good idea.
Theres really no reason for me to go into details about why my spring rates are what they are. I would like to keep this tread on topic you guys have posted some really good info. It is simply there to prove a point that stiff springs do not over come the lack of droop travel.
bdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:33 PM   #133
bdi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66033
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Dergo, CA
Vehicle:
05 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Helper springs prevent the main spring from rattling loose when the suspension is drooping. They don't magically change the travel of the damper.


No, they're perfectly happy to lift either. Mine picks up a front wheel all the time.

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. There's no justification for that.


Yup, just another reason big front sways aren't always a good idea.
I disagree with you here. Picking up a tire on a awd car doesnt make anything happy except your local dif rebuild shop.
bdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:46 PM   #134
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Wrong.

With a single-adjustable coil-over, the main spring should be fully extended at full droop. On top of that, the helper spring should be mostly extended. This causes the springs to remain firmly seated. Due to the tiny spring rate of the helper spring compared to main spring, the main spring is compressed infinitesimally so long as the helper spring hasn't reached coil bind. As your raise and lower the lower spring perch, you are moving the main coil up and down without compressing it. The change in the distance between the upper and lower perches is being entirely accommodated by the helper spring compressing and expanding. Because of the helper spring, the preload on the main spring isn't changing at all. As soon as you set the car on its feet, the helper spring collapses and becomes solid. The main spring compresses slightly and the car settles to its final ride height. Because the main spring always compresses the same amount for a given car weight on it, moving the lower spring perch up and down results in the overall ride height changing.
Thanks for that explanation, but my original statement was made assuming no helper springs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
There is one advantage to dual-adjustable. If you're stroke limited, that is to say if the damper bottoms out before the coil binds, a DA setup can offer you slightly more height adjustability without sacrificing damper stroke.
If my coil over is stroke limited, doesn't the DA setup allow me to make whatever height adjustment I want provided I stay within the safe range of adjustment for the bottom bracket? IF I set my ride height at 15" (from hub to fender arch) or 12" I still have the same amount of damper stroke, provided the car isn't scraping the ground. Isn't the idea of a DA coil over that it has NO effect on damper stroke?
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 09:51 PM   #135
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Helper springs prevent the main spring from rattling loose when the suspension is drooping. They don't magically change the travel of the damper.
If you have a massive main spring that compresses only 1/2" under the full weight of the car, well then you have only 1/2" of suspension droop.
If you add a 2" helper spring, you just added 2" of droop to your suspension (at the expense of bump travel).
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:05 PM   #136
bdi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66033
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Dergo, CA
Vehicle:
05 STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
If you have a massive main spring that compresses only 1/2" under the full weight of the car, well then you have only 1/2" of suspension droop.
If you add a 2" helper spring, you just added 2" of droop to your suspension (at the expense of bump travel).
Again...thats not right.

Think of it like this: Ask your self...what is holding the damper from fully pulling apart in your 1/2" droop travel example? Answer...not the main spring. The damper will droop until the damper bottoms out. The main spring will just rattle around.

What the helper spring does is keep the main spring from moving around under full droop or when the main spring is no long in contact with both spring perches.
bdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:11 PM   #137
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

I think what antonch is saying is if you back down the bottom perch and add a helper spring, you can add droop travel, but it would come at the expense of bump travel.
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:26 PM   #138
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Again...thats not right.

Think of it like this: Ask your self...what is holding the damper from fully pulling apart in your 1/2" droop travel example? Answer...not the main spring. The damper will droop until the damper bottoms out. The main spring will just rattle around.
Again? I hope you are not referring to the example of the stiff FSB lifting the front wheels.

On to your second point, preload is set such that the spring is ALWAYS in contact w/ the spring perch, even at full drop. Helper springs are generally not used in the front.
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:29 PM   #139
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
I disagree with you here. Picking up a tire on a awd car doesnt make anything happy except your local dif rebuild shop.
I lol'd

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Thanks for that explanation, but my original statement was made assuming no helper springs.
OK, I was presuming a properly designed system that just chose not to provide enough travel. Yes, if you want to be an asshat, you can sell SA coilovers with no helper. There's a word for that: stupid.



Quote:
If my coil over is stroke limited, doesn't the DA setup allow me to make whatever height adjustment I want provided I stay within the safe range of adjustment for the bottom bracket? IF I set my ride height at 15" (from hub to fender arch) or 12" I still have the same amount of damper stroke, provided the car isn't scraping the ground. Isn't the idea of a DA coil over that it has NO effect on damper stroke?
Yes, it's true that with a DA setup, you can move a no-helper-spring system up and down without changing preload. However, you can get exactly the same thing out of a SA system with a helper spring.

The most likely reason to make a DA system is to allow the use of a single damper housing on multiple different cars. Never assume a designer is doing something clever when they could just be doing something cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
If you have a massive main spring that compresses only 1/2" under the full weight of the car, well then you have only 1/2" of suspension droop.
If you add a 2" helper spring, you just added 2" of droop to your suspension (at the expense of bump travel).
In this very specific case, you're right. However, this only holds true in the incredibly limited situation where the main spring is long enough to push the damper to full droop but has a linear spring so stiff it doesn't compress meaningfully to ride height. However, we're again into a corner case of a suspension that wasn't designed reasonably to begin with. It's like selling the base model without a steering wheel. It's just not functional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
I think what antonch is saying is if you back down the bottom perch and add a helper spring, you can add droop travel, but it would come at the expense of bump travel.
Again, this is only the case in an a badly designed system. It would also lower the car, which may not be desirable.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:33 PM   #140
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
I disagree with you here. Picking up a tire on a awd car doesnt make anything happy except your local dif rebuild shop.
No, no, no. What Ty was saying was a reply to anothers post saying that Subaru's have more of a tendency to lift the rear tire. His point is that front and rear can both lift easily...not that it's a good thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Thanks for that explanation, but my original statement was made assuming no helper springs.



If my coil over is stroke limited, doesn't the DA setup allow me to make whatever height adjustment I want provided I stay within the safe range of adjustment for the bottom bracket? IF I set my ride height at 15" (from hub to fender arch) or 12" I still have the same amount of damper stroke, provided the car isn't scraping the ground. Isn't the idea of a DA coil over that it has NO effect on damper stroke?
They have to use a DA setup because they don't have enough stroke in the first place. Most DA units use the same damper for dozens of car chassis because they don't want to redesign for each car. Quality SA units have enough stroke when set within the confines of the rest of the suspension of the car that they don't need the DA portion to compensate for lack of travel. The ONLY time a DA is better than a SA is if you are trying to lower the car to mm of the ground, in which case damper travel is the least you're going to worry about in terms of the suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
If you have a massive main spring that compresses only 1/2" under the full weight of the car, well then you have only 1/2" of suspension droop.
If you add a 2" helper spring, you just added 2" of droop to your suspension (at the expense of bump travel).
I must be missing what you're trying to say here. If the suspension is properly designed a helper spring shouldn't take away travel at all in either direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Again...thats not right.

Think of it like this: Ask your self...what is holding the damper from fully pulling apart in your 1/2" droop travel example? Answer...not the main spring. The damper will droop until the damper bottoms out. The main spring will just rattle around.

What the helper spring does is keep the main spring from moving around under full droop or when the main spring is no long in contact with both spring perches.
Correct.

Last edited by Daishi00; 02-09-2010 at 10:39 PM.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:35 PM   #141
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
Helper springs are generally not used in the front.
Oh really?

TiC SST's use them
Litchfield Type 25's use them
RCE T2's use them
RCE T0's use them
KW V3's use them


That's pretty much a list of the best COs for the Impreza...
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:37 PM   #142
sniper1rfa
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 141040
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Designing things
Vehicle:
07 2.5i wagon
UGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
Boost Junkie: I mentioned motion ratios as that is one of the factors that effects strut travel.
Not really - the motion ratio of a macstrut like ours is pretty much 1, and it can safely be assumed that the wheel travel is identical to the shock travel, and the wheel rate is identical to the spring rate. There is no easy way to change the motion ratio of pre-08 imprezas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty
Yes, if you want to be an asshat, you can sell SA coilovers with no helper. There's a word for that: stupid.
Hey now! My coilovers are SA with no helper springs. Jerk.
sniper1rfa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:41 PM   #143
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

I believe JRZ uses helper springs as well. Ohlins too (but I could be totally wrong).
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:45 PM   #144
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
Hey now! My coilovers are SA with no helper springs. Jerk.
Valid point.

But look at what else you had to get right to make it work: Spring length, rate, damper travel, bumpstop length, vehicle weight, tire clearance, etc, etc, etc. You made a very vehicle-specific, very cool, custom coilover setup which was largely facilitated by the fact that your dampers have, what, 8" of travel? You're also being helped by the fact that you're running moderate spring rates which give you enough compression at ride height to provide droop travel. It would be much harder (impossible?) to find a solution that did everything right at twice your spring rate without resorting to a helper spring.

I know you know that, but it serves as a good example as why a SA-no-helper-spring-one-size-fits-all-cars setup is a BAD idea.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:55 PM   #145
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Oh really?

TiC SST's use them
Litchfield Type 25's use them
RCE T2's use them
RCE T0's use them
KW V3's use them


That's pretty much a list of the best COs for the Impreza...
I had RCE T2's and no, they do NOT come with helper springs up front
I don't believe KW V3's come with helper spring in the front either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
I must be missing what you're trying to say here. If the suspension is properly designed a helper spring shouldn't take away travel at all in either direction.
Helper springs allow you to have more droop by increasing the displacement that the strut travels. If you have a helper spring that takes 5" to fully compress, well then the strut will have to move by exactly 5" before it begins to compress the main spring. That is the strut travel lost in bump.
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 10:57 PM   #146
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
I had RCE T2's and no, they do NOT come with helper springs up front
I don't believe KW V3's come with helper spring in the front either.
Pictures available online of both brands show them having helpers on both front and rear.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 11:08 PM   #147
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
I had RCE T2's and no, they do NOT come with helper springs up front
I don't believe KW V3's come with helper spring in the front either.
They sure as hell do. If yours don't you better contact Myles ASAP. They are on top in the fronts, bottom on the rears.

Quote:
Helper springs allow you to have more droop by increasing the displacement that the strut travels. If you have a helper spring that takes 5" to fully compress, well then the strut will have to move by exactly 5" before it begins to compress the main spring. That is the strut travel lost in bump.
Well, technically the travel is there, but yes, under mainspring load it is lost.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 11:20 PM   #148
antonch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 170384
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Sti
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
Not really - the motion ratio of a macstrut like ours is pretty much 1, and it can safely be assumed that the wheel travel is identical to the shock travel, and the wheel rate is identical to the spring rate. There is no easy way to change the motion ratio of pre-08 imprezas.



Hey now! My coilovers are SA with no helper springs. Jerk.
Even though we have motion ratios of 1 it's still important to keep it's effects in mind. There is more to suspensions than just the GD chassis. It was mentioned before that the 08+ has a different motion ratio--very important.

LOL, this is the same guy that tried to convince me that more weight transfer==more overall grip in another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
They sure as hell do. If yours don't you better contact Myles ASAP. They are on top in the fronts, bottom on the rears.
Crap, I bought those coilovers used, I did not know that a helper spring was needed up front. At least I've never had the need for a helper spring up front--I never lifted any wheels.
I have since sold them.
antonch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 11:26 PM   #149
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
Even though we have motion ratios of 1 it's still important to keep it's effects in mind. There is more to suspensions than just the GD chassis. It was mentioned before that the 08+ has a different motion ratio--very important.

LOL, this is the same guy that tried to convince me that more weight transfer==more overall grip in another thread.
the 08's have around 0.82 MR if I remember BIGSKY's calculation. sniper was probably referring to the original car in the beginning of this thread. As for the grip issue in the other thread...you both have valid points from that thread. Drag racers try to put as much weight onto the back wheels (in a RWD vehicle) to increase grip.

Quote:
Crap, I bought those coilovers used, I did not know that a helper spring was needed up front. At least I've never had the need for a helper spring up front--I never lifted any wheels.
I have since sold them.
whoever you bought them from screwed you good.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 11:32 PM   #150
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
Quality SA units have enough stroke when set within the confines of the rest of the suspension of the car that they don't need the DA portion to compensate for lack of travel. The ONLY time a DA is better than a SA is if you are trying to lower the car to mm of the ground, in which case damper travel is the least you're going to worry about in terms of the suspension.
So you're saying that no DA setup has enough travel? I'm trying to make comparisons of equal quality, not club baby seals by saying my high quality SA setup is better than a cheap DA setup......
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GC Kit and droop jeisen Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 02-15-2010 08:18 AM
back to stock sale coilovers and other parts cheap mrguppy MAIC Private Classifieds 14 10-13-2008 02:46 PM
Springing options for coilovers - attacking stroke and droop travel Scooby921 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 05-10-2007 11:41 AM
FS: Brand New Coilovers and Shocks Cheap! wildchild Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 2 08-01-2004 07:46 PM
Cheap coilover kits on eBay B-Kerr Brakes, Steering & Suspension 11 05-31-2003 12:40 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.