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Old 02-10-2010, 12:35 AM   #151
STiRA-435
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Although I don't have anything to add to this thread I am dealing with droop travel problems myself.

I remember a couple months ago watching the following video of the 555 Impreza rally car and scratching my head as to why (when I assume there is so much travel available) does the car have a (tarmac) setup with so little droop. I realize that for the majority of the time the inside tyres are making contact with the ground but if you watch closely when the inside rear leaves the ground you can only see around <2" of droop.


See 1:20, 2:23
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:41 AM   #152
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The only DA setup I know of that has MIGHT have enough travel is the Ohlins DFV units (can't say for certain as I've never seen measurements on them, but would be shocked if they don't have decent travel numbers), and they run around $3250 at the cheapest place. NOTHING in the "cheap coilover" class that is DA has enough travel, which is the basis of this thread. This includes most of the JDM branded coilovers as well as they are also travel limited for the most part until you get into some of the $3k stuff.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:55 AM   #153
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So what would you say is the minimum travel you need? The problem is this is a subjective number. So let's narrow it down Option 1: said car is not a DD, driver is looking for better handling at track days. Option 2: same car is daily driven, occasional track events, wants to lower it. Lets keep coil overs as the option in both cases to make things easier.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:57 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
It would be much harder (impossible?) to find a solution that did everything right at twice your spring rate without resorting to a helper spring.
It would be impossible any any spring rate over 225lb/in up front. The front is absolutely as low as it can go right now. The rear could probably go up to 225 from 200.

I could probably go up a bit in the front if i had a truboz.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:43 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
So what would you say is the minimum travel you need? The problem is this is a subjective number. So let's narrow it down Option 1: said car is not a DD, driver is looking for better handling at track days. Option 2: same car is daily driven, occasional track events, wants to lower it. Lets keep coil overs as the option in both cases to make things easier.
I really don't see how this is a subjective number. Just because you're on the track doesn't mean you don't want as much travel as a DD. Lifting a wheel might look cool, but it doesn't make you faster.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:59 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiRA-435 View Post
Although I don't have anything to add to this thread I am dealing with droop travel problems myself.

I remember a couple months ago watching the following video of the 555 Impreza rally car and scratching my head as to why (when I assume there is so much travel available) does the car have a (tarmac) setup with so little droop. I realize that for the majority of the time the inside tyres are making contact with the ground but if you watch closely when the inside rear leaves the ground you can only see around <2" of droop.

YouTube- Supreme Subaru Impreza 555 - tribute with pure engine sounds

See 1:20, 2:23
Go to 2:38 when it jumps and look at the droop travel it has. I'm betting it's running a huge rear bar that is limiting suspension independence which is causing the inside rear to lift. Not to mention the terrain it traverses is going to cause lift at times. That is why suspension independence is so important in off road conditions.

Tony
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:06 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Go to 2:38 when it jumps and look at the droop travel it has. I'm betting it's running a huge rear bar that is limiting suspension independence which is causing the inside rear to lift. Not to mention the terrain it traverses is going to cause lift at times. That is why suspension independence is so important in off road conditions.

Tony
That's clearly a different suspension setup. He's talking about the car on the tarmac setup.

Please explain why such a competitive car would have so little droop... and is it just me, or does that car look pretty damn low? Maybe different subframe setups similar to the MSI unit?
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:12 PM   #158
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1:20 and 2:23 are definitely the sway holding the wheel up. At 1:20, look at the left rear wheel. It's in contact with the ground and compressed the whole time. The sway tries to make both wheels do the same thing at the same time. In effect, the left wheel is holding the right wheel up.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:14 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD View Post
That's clearly a different suspension setup. He's talking about the car on the tarmac setup.

Please explain why such a competitive car would have so little droop... and is it just me, or does that car look pretty damn low? Maybe different subframe setups similar to the MSI unit?
Do you know what a sway bar does and how it works? The whole suspension geometry is changed to accomodate the lowering. You've been digging some good holes for yourself around here lately.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:40 PM   #160
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He's probably running BC's and that's why he's saying what he is.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:05 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronmsadler View Post
Do you know what a sway bar does and how it works? The whole suspension geometry is changed to accomodate the lowering. You've been digging some good holes for yourself around here lately.
I'm not digging holes. I'm attempting to learn about suspension; why droop is so important.

From what I can tell the sway bar is limiting droop. Isn't that what TIC explained we want to AVOID? I'm honestly curious because that seems like a pretty competitive rally car. Not trying to be a dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
He's probably running BC's and that's why he's saying what he is.
My car is stock. I bought it because I live in Canada and there is snow on the ground 8 months out of the year.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:07 PM   #162
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You make smart ass comments in multiple threads and now you come back saying you are attempting learn? Seriously?
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:14 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD View Post
I'm not digging holes. I'm attempting to learn about suspension; why droop is so important.

From what I can tell the sway bar is limiting droop. Isn't that what TIC explained we want to AVOID? I'm honestly curious because that seems like a pretty competitive rally car. Not trying to be a dick.


My car is stock. I bought it because I live in Canada and there is snow on the ground 8 months out of the year.
There is a point and compromise.

The pics we posted of the car as an example was droop limited due the damper. There was so little travel that the bar never became involved. In fact, that car doesn't even have a rear bar on it.

Whereas the droop pic of my car (the pic with lots of travel) does indeed have a bar on it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:18 PM   #164
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Have you ever driven switch backs in Europe? I lived there for twelve years and the mountain roads had a large variety of conditions with bumps, off camber, etc. I would imagine it is almost impossible to make a tarmac rally suspension handle all of it unless you ran motocross bike travel.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:20 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
There is a point and compromise.

The pics we posted of the car as an example was droop limited due the damper. There was so little travel that the bar never became involved. In fact, that car doesn't even have a rear bar on it.

Whereas the droop pic of my car (the pic with lots of travel) does indeed have a bar on it.
Ahhhhh. Ok.

Thanks for explaining. I'm gonna do some more reading.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:33 PM   #166
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The biggest problem I face, especially living in the epicenter of slammed Subaru's which is Southern California, is that most of the guys snapping up these cheap coilovers would never bother to stop and even consider looking at a thread like this on the forum, nor bother to try and learn much to make sense of it.

To make a huge generalization, I would say for most of the people buying these the fact they only cost $xxx.xx amount of dollars, and they read a review somewhere that said "yeah their way better then stock", and "they have adjustable damping and ride height" is enough to discard all of the information, and reasons that exist against such a set up, buy a set, jump in the car, go around a turn at 15mph on the street, "perceive" them as being better then stock because their overly stiff and the car rolls less, jump on the forum and tell everyone the same.

And I use emphasis on the word generalization because I know this isn't the case for every person that's bought a set of these, but it really holds true for the most part. One example I use a lot is of a customer who bought and installed "X" brand cheapo coilover's from his buddy, and thought he got a swinging deal on them for $500 bucks. After a few months of riding around on them, I repacked his stock STi struts and installed them, and after about a day of driving he called to tell me "wow, your right this is definitely way better". It's all a matter of perception.

Sorry I know I got a bit off course from the technical end of the conversation you guys we're having.

-Anthony

Last edited by Vaughn Performance; 02-10-2010 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:00 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD View Post
Please explain why such a competitive car would have so little droop... and is it just me, or does that car look pretty damn low? Maybe different subframe setups similar to the MSI unit?
Yeah, the WRC car's control arm mounting points are relocated and the wheel wells are tubbed, so the wheels will tuck pretty far. The tarmac cars definitely don't have as much travel as the gravel cars but they've still got a good deal.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:09 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
I know you know that, but it serves as a good example as why a SA-no-helper-spring-one-size-fits-all-cars setup is a BAD idea.
Including Koni's and GC sleeves?
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:15 PM   #169
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Including Koni's and GC sleeves?

This always makes me nervous. You really can't maintain a reasonable strut travel (which GC's allow you do do) and a reasonable ride height without a helper spring at any spring rate above ~225lb/in. It's just not possible without having your springs come loose at full droop.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:26 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritky View Post
Including Koni's and GC sleeves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
This always makes me nervous. You really can't maintain a reasonable strut travel (which GC's allow you do do) and a reasonable ride height without a helper spring at any spring rate above ~225lb/in. It's just not possible without having your springs come loose at full droop.
Sniper mentioned most of it. You can fudge things a little, but in the end, you end up needing to run helper springs. Not to mention how much worse the whole situation is made by the fact that most of the people using GC sleeves are also using QA1 springs. /me shudders.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:27 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
This always makes me nervous. You really can't maintain a reasonable strut travel (which GC's allow you do do) and a reasonable ride height without a helper spring at any spring rate above ~225lb/in. It's just not possible without having your springs come loose at full droop.
I guess I was more refering to williaty's reference to "bad idea" since a lot of "experts" on here recommend that as a budget set up versus the cheap coilovers.

Now what is worse, having all that droop with a loose spring or a cheap coilover with limited droop?
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:30 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritky View Post
I guess I was more refering to williaty's reference to "bad idea" since a lot of "experts" on here recommend that as a budget set up versus the cheap coilovers.

Now what is worse, having all that droop with a loose spring or a cheap coilover with limited droop.
Loose spring. Limited droop makes you slow. Loose spring makes you dead.

That being said, GC Sleeves around Konis with the D-Rex Bump Extenders (or a D-Spec) using Swift main springs and helpers is a great setup. It's also hardly any more expensive than a Cheap Crap Coilover while giving you more travel, better springs, and better dampers.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:47 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Loose spring. Limited droop makes you slow. Loose spring makes you dead.

That being said, GC Sleeves around Konis with the D-Rex Bump Extenders (or a D-Spec) using Swift main springs and helpers is a great setup. It's also hardly any more expensive than a Cheap Crap Coilover while giving you more travel, better springs, and better dampers.
Loose spring risky and makes some people nervious? Yeah, I would agree with that. But Dead? C'mon now, you're scaring away the kiddies trying to learn about suspension
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:53 PM   #174
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Go to full droop. Spring comes loose. Come back down to ride height. Spring jams sideways/crooked and behaves strangely. Car spins into oncoming traffic.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:56 PM   #175
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^^^ I concur. A loose spring is a scary prospect, IMO.
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