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Old 02-10-2010, 10:05 PM   #176
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If you are getting full droop with koni's/dspecs and GC's on the street you are just driving like an ass hat. More likely your excessive speed for the road conditions will cause you problems.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:15 PM   #177
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There is definitely difference between good coilover and cheap coilover.
But be in mind you're comparing a $800 coilover vs $2000 coilover..
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:18 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritky View Post
If you are getting full droop with koni's/dspecs and GC's on the street you are just driving like an ass hat. More likely your excessive speed for the road conditions will cause you problems.
I can see plenty of situations where you need full droop or close to full droop in normal driving conditions.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:19 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815 View Post
There is definitely difference between good coilover and cheap coilover.
But be in mind you're comparing a $800 coilover vs $2000 coilover..
That's the point. You sacrifice a ton of things going with cheap coilovers and the argument that they're "good enough for the street" is complete crap.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:33 PM   #180
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then you always have the choice to buy $2000+ coilover like KW or AST or Whiteline.
The final word is stlll you get what you pay for.
You can't compare $800 vs $2000 coilover. it's not equal comparison.
It's like comparing Subaru vs Porsche.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:35 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
I can see plenty of situations where you need full droop or close to full droop in normal driving conditions.
This much droop on the street? Please explain since I don't think that's normal. I'm not trying to argue but I just can't think of anytime I would need that much droop when driving normal (unless your normal is much differnent that my normal).



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Old 02-10-2010, 10:52 PM   #182
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+1

I'm with you, where are you driving that you need that much droop on the street? San Francisco?
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:26 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Go to 2:38 when it jumps and look at the droop travel it has. I'm betting it's running a huge rear bar that is limiting suspension independence which is causing the inside rear to lift. Not to mention the terrain it traverses is going to cause lift at times. That is why suspension independence is so important in off road conditions.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
1:20 and 2:23 are definitely the sway holding the wheel up. At 1:20, look at the left rear wheel. It's in contact with the ground and compressed the whole time. The sway tries to make both wheels do the same thing at the same time. In effect, the left wheel is holding the right wheel up.
Ok, that explains why it appears there is so little droop. But if lifting the inside rear means less grip overall + upsetting the car when it regains contact with the road, why would they run such a large RSB? Is this because rotation is so important on a tight tarmac stage?
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:43 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritky View Post
This much droop on the street? Please explain since I don't think that's normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
I'm with you, where are you driving that you need that much droop on the street? San Francisco?
Both of you, go watch the video that was posted into this thread. It shows my car using that much droop just driving down a normal road at the speed limit. It also shows me running out of droop travel and lifting a rear wheel pulling into a gas station.

Real life just uses way more suspension travel than you guys think it does!



Quote:
Originally Posted by STiRA-435 View Post
Ok, that explains why it appears there is so little droop. But if lifting the inside rear means less grip overall + upsetting the car when it regains contact with the road, why would they run such a large RSB? Is this because rotation is so important on a tight tarmac stage?
The bar hurts them when it lifts a wheel. However, it's helping them in other situations. They've obviously made the engineering decision that the stiff bar is doing more good more of the time than those lifts are hurting them in the hairpins. Also keep in mind how vicious the diff setup probably is on that car. They may not be loosing nearly the motive force you or I would when they pick up a wheel if they're running hella strong diffs.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:49 PM   #185
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Here, let me bring it back:

From 0:00 to 1:27 is me driving down a normal road at the speed limit. In several places, you can see the wheel cycle from full droop to full compression. IIRC, on my setup that's 6.75" of travel.

1:27 to 1:47 is me pulling out of my driveway. Just getting to the end of my driveway uses more suspension travel than most of the Cheap Crap Coilovers have.

1:47 to 1:52 (hard to see the cut) is me pulling into a gas station at about 10mph. You can see that I use up all the droop the right rear has and actually pick up the right rear wheel.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:30 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815 View Post
...You can't compare $800 vs $2000 coilover. it's not equal comparison...
But you can compare an $800 coilover to an $800 spring and strut combo.

The point is if you have $800 to spend on suspension, and actually care how it handles, don't buy crappy coilovers. There are way better options for that amount of money. A new D spec setup and a set of good used springs, will run you that much, and not suck.

If you have $2000 plus to spend on suspension buy good coilovers.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:23 AM   #187
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Williaty,

I've watched your video several times, what suspension do you have? By your statement, even your car doesn't have enough travel since it lifts a wheel going into the gas station; does that mean you have crappy suspension? NO, there will always be cases where suspension will be lacking for the road condition.
I get your point about how much travel is used. My point was that if you are using almost all of your stock droop travel, you may need to rethink your driving style. No matter how much travel you have there will always be a condition where you could use more. I didn't buy coil overs for the .01% of times when I come across a gas station that lifts the rear wheel. I bought them to increase performance, if this means I can't do 70 over that bumpy stretch of road, I DON'T; that's a compromise I'm willing to make.
What would be really great is to get several different setups and run them over the same road so we can see the differences
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:17 AM   #188
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I've avoided really taking any real part in this discussion because, frankly, I do not know enough about the nitty gritty of race setups to justify/rationalize the lack of droop travel on most tarmac/road course setups. But this whole droop thing has always had me wondering ever since I started rebuilding Group 4's. The Race spec Group 4's run shorter springs and longer droop limiters (which shorten the stroke giving shorter droop) compared to the Circuit spec. I always wondered about that.

A couple of things. first, it was probably a misnomer to title this thread "Cheap coilovers and droop" as there are plenty of big buck setups with short amounts of droop. Granted, these cheap coilovers are more than likely "copying" big buck race setups to get the overall stroke length and respective bump and droop amounts in their designs. Its easy to poke fun at these setups but with so many cheapos copying, I had to wonder, what was the original thinking to this type of setup (beyond cheap to produce). Because more than likely, some big buck race team did it first. So why?

Well, I've been doing some rough research on some of the SAE forums and there have been some interesting discussions about running zero droop, or less droop. Its going to take some years for my dense brain to fully process it, but it seems that there is indeed a method to the madness and its not just to be "yo, jdm tite, yo"!

The sad thing is we don't have any "real" chassis engineers here, say from Dallara or Prodrive on hand to give us first hand experience and background as to why this is actually done.

i agree on a road going car, a decent amount of droop is necessary and not just to get up into driveways. However, from what I'm reading, there is actually a tuning/setup function to using lower amounts of droop in addition to <gasp> spring preload. I think, from reading this stuff, we may have yet another setup tool to experiment and ruin our car's handling with!

Here are a couple of threads we should read and try our best to absorb. I haven't finished reading it all, but so far, its been very interesting and may serve to open up some of the usual dogma we tend to spread around here.

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1.../m/99910383721

main thread:

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...21#18910968321

Interesting excerpt here from that main thread:

Quote:
Just heard about this thread & thought I'd chime in to get things corrected.

"Zero Droop" and "Droop Limiting" are 2 pages of the basicly same thing. Both/either are done by many to combat push.

The simplest explanation is that both will change the degree of Jacking Effect at some amount of lateral loading. Jacking Effect is basicly a dynamic self-stiffening of the suspension in reaction to lateral loads fed thru the suspension arms. Think of it as being the same as anti-dive or anti-squat, except laterally rather than longitudinally.

Generally, either will be done to combat a push in a car that is not well set up - generally too soft.

Drivers will start to feel push generation at some specific level of lateral load. The idea is to decrease the self-stiffening effect starting at that load level or just before it is reached. (The car is already pushing, but the driver can't feel it yet - it is too subtle).

Droop limiting - either via preloading the spring when installing on the shock, or thru the use of a mechanical stop devise - allows the car to accept lateral loading and roll a specific amout before the inside spring tops out. At that point there is a certain amount of vertical load still left on the inside tire. For any further load transfer ( and the necessary increase in lateral loading) the actual roll center moves to the center (almost) of the inside tire contact patch. For any further roll (from increased lateral loading) the car now pivots about that point, and lowers itself. That lowering in turn decreases the Jacking Effect. Roll stiffness from the springs and bars is not changed at all, so the net effect is a decrease in roll stiffness (or at a minimum, no further increase)

Zero Drooping just starts things immediately, rather than after the lateral load builds to a certain level. It can have the benefit of making the car VERY reactive on initial turn-in, but will also decrease the ultimate grip potential (that ultimate grip loss is present in droop limiting also).

Most cars push from being set up too soft, allowing the car to either roll out of the correct camber for those tires, and/or transfer too much weight to the outside front tire. Both of those situation can be present, or just one - the trick is to figure out which you've got.

Too soft can be either springs, bars, or both. Push can come from the front bar being too soft, the rear springs too soft, or ALL of the springs too soft.

A note on spring rates - spring rate by itself has nothing to do with grip generation. Obviously, wayyyy too stiff a spring will hurt grip from how it hammers the tire contact patch, but that isn't the range we are speaking about.

Richar Pare

I also suggest doing a search on "droop" on that site. A few pages worth sifting through, I think, to glean more info from real techno nerds!

Last edited by Arnie; 02-11-2010 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:33 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
However, from what I'm reading, there is actually a tuning/setup function to using lower amounts of droop in addition to <gasp> spring preload. I think, from reading this stuff, we may have yet another setup tool to experiment and ruin our car's handling with!

While people are reading these posts, keep in mind that the thread Arnie posted only applies to the front suspension. Also keep in mind that it's applied to RWD formula cars with double-wishbone front suspension and very low ride height.

While there is a good amount of disagreement in those threads, there are a couple points which stand out:

First, limiting droop is good for turn-in (transition) but bad for overall grip.

There seem to be a few reasons listed. First, it dramatically reduces body roll and adverse camber gain by shooting the roll center to the outside tire instantly during turn-in.

Second, depending on your suspension setup (IE, wishbones that are level at static ride height) you can cause the car to jack down in place of roll. That allows less load transfer to the outside wheel, reducing the spike in loading and reducing turn-in understeer, at the expense of ultimate grip.

Third, running preload allows more downforce from aero without squishing the car onto the pavement.

Fourth, this can be used to tune specific cars to specific tracks - by tuning the transient ability of the car against the ultimate cornering grip to take advantage of how twisty or flowing a track is. Also note that the subject of bumps was only discussed briefly.



So, very interesting discussion and definitely something to keep in the back of my head. However, it definitely needs to be said again that those techniques apply only to racing cars.

Last edited by sniper1rfa; 02-11-2010 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:48 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by ritky View Post
This much droop on the street? Please explain since I don't think that's normal. I'm not trying to argue but I just can't think of anytime I would need that much droop when driving normal (unless your normal is much differnent that my normal).



Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
+1

I'm with you, where are you driving that you need that much droop on the street? San Francisco?
You deserve a Riker face palm for these comments



he said in his initial post with those pics that that is about stock suspension travel. So yes, you would use all of that in a normal day of driving. I know of quite a few dirt roads in the area that would require that much travel. It's the reason I never take my WRX on them because bad things will happen. I know of a few roads in DE where you need that much travel as well due to lack of repair by the state.

Last edited by Daishi00; 02-11-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:53 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Williaty,

I've watched your video several times, what suspension do you have? By your statement, even your car doesn't have enough travel since it lifts a wheel going into the gas station; does that mean you have crappy suspension? NO, there will always be cases where suspension will be lacking for the road condition.
I get your point about how much travel is used. My point was that if you are using almost all of your stock droop travel, you may need to rethink your driving style. No matter how much travel you have there will always be a condition where you could use more. I didn't buy coil overs for the .01% of times when I come across a gas station that lifts the rear wheel. I bought them to increase performance, if this means I can't do 70 over that bumpy stretch of road, I DON'T; that's a compromise I'm willing to make.
What would be really great is to get several different setups and run them over the same road so we can see the differences
So you bought them for performance...yet you have to compromise how you drive because of them Good performance purchase there.

Let's face it. You're not going to agree and continue to argue because you don't want to admit you dropped a bunch of money on something that has actually lowered your overall performance.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:57 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
snipers car has a LIFT on it. He made custom coilovers to increase his travel.
Actually, to be fair (and why i posted it) the car does not actually have any extra travel. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

And yes, it does get used up on occasion.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:58 AM   #193
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Actually, to be fair (and why i posted it) the car does not actually have any extra travel. I wish it did, but it doesn't.
I know. I just reread your initial post and edited mine and you just happened to post RIGHT before I hit the save button you bastard . My point still stands though I may have to give myself a Riker palm pic though
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:28 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
what suspension do you have?
Well, the only thing left stock in my suspension is the rear knuckles (yes, literally true). However, the bits you're really asking about are D-Specs and USDM STi springs.

Quote:
By your statement, even your car doesn't have enough travel since it lifts a wheel going into the gas station; does that mean you have crappy suspension?
Correct, I don't have enough suspension travel. I'd like more. I'd be faster under more conditions if I had more.

Quote:
NO, there will always be cases where suspension will be lacking for the road condition.
Which proves my point, not yours. If there's always going to be cases that exceed your suspension's ability (and you're right, there always will be) then you need the most capable suspension you can afford to buy. That's never a Cheap Crap Coilover.

Quote:
My point was that if you are using almost all of your stock droop travel, you may need to rethink your driving style. ... if this means I can't do 70 over that bumpy stretch of road, I DON'T; that's a compromise I'm willing to make.
That video is on a well-maintained road with a 55mph speed limit. I was traveling at 60mph in the video. You're saying that you'd slow down to, what, probably 30mph or so, like grandma driving her Edsel?
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:40 PM   #195
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Daishi00,
My first setup was AGX struts with Prodrive springs, great for the street and decent for the track. I sold them and put Cusco Zero 2Es on and the car is faster with the cusco's than the AGX setup. Are there better track setups? Yes, but budget played a role here. You're correct, the mods on my car have lowered its DD performance, but they weren't done for DD. Bottom line coil overs are not the answer for the street, I don't know why you think that's the point I'm trying to make.

Daishi00/Williaty,

All I'm trying to do is get you guys to opine on what is an acceptable coil over for a car doing track time and LIMITED street duty. All you seem to willing to do is thrash BCs and their limited travel. I'm with you, they are not the answer; but I've read through this entire thread and it has done nothing but devolve into a comparison of a quality strut setup (like yours) to cheap coil overs.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:47 PM   #196
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Track time and limited street duty? How seriously are you about the track?

Just in it to have fun? Struts and springs.

In it to win it? RCE T0/T2 or TiC SST or something even more $$$

I've said that multiple times before. I'm not sure why you think I haven't.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:52 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
While people are reading these posts, keep in mind that the thread Arnie posted only applies to the front suspension. Also keep in mind that it's applied to RWD formula cars with double-wishbone front suspension and very low ride height.

While there is a good amount of disagreement in those threads, there are a couple points which stand out:

First, limiting droop is good for turn-in (transition) but bad for overall grip.

There seem to be a few reasons listed. First, it dramatically reduces body roll and adverse camber gain by shooting the roll center to the outside tire instantly during turn-in.

Second, depending on your suspension setup (IE, wishbones that are level at static ride height) you can cause the car to jack down in place of roll. That allows less load transfer to the outside wheel, reducing the spike in loading and reducing turn-in understeer, at the expense of ultimate grip.

Third, running preload allows more downforce from aero without squishing the car onto the pavement.

Fourth, this can be used to tune specific cars to specific tracks - by tuning the transient ability of the car against the ultimate cornering grip to take advantage of how twisty or flowing a track is. Also note that the subject of bumps was only discussed briefly.



So, very interesting discussion and definitely something to keep in the back of my head. However, it definitely needs to be said again that those techniques apply only to racing cars.
Well,its a general discussion on droop/zero droop in regards to front and rear but one of the posters wanted to simplify the discussion by talking about the front wheels.

And though it is talking about formula fords, not exactly apples to apples, I think the basic principles may apply.

Agreed, it is a discussion for racing vehicles. But, that is the gist of my point. Where did this low droop design aesthetic come from on the cheap coilovers? They most likely copied from higher end race setups. So the discussion is: what is the purpose, benefit of the low droop setup?
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:54 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Track time and limited street duty? How seriously are you about the track?

Just in it to have fun? Struts and springs.

In it to win it? RCE T0/T2 or TiC SST or something even more $$$

I've said that multiple times before. I'm not sure why you think I haven't.
Thanks.......
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:11 PM   #199
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Question for TIC:

Do you think the cheap coils(I'm assuming they're BC) would be faster around the track than stock suspension if all other aspects of the car were kept constant? Have you guys ever considered such a comparison?

I just find a lot of people are trying to compare 1k coils to 2k+ coils. Rather unfair. And yes, I know there are 1k spring/strut setups... but those aren't height adjustable which is important to many people.

Not at all trying to defend the cheapo coils btw. When I buy, it won't be those.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #200
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Even cheap coilovers would be 100% faster around a track compared to stock suspension (assuming that both were optimized as much as possible). The lower CoG, stiffer spring rates, better camber management of even a cheap coilover will trump a stock suspension. No question.

but it would be an interesting comparison between a BC/Megan and say, a DSpec/RCE spring (and some method to generate equal camber to the BC/Megan like double bolts/camber plates). Set all suspension to the same alignment/ride height specs, same tires, swaybars, etc. and see what happens. Actually, scratch that, I say simply optimize the setup for both systems independently. For example, one may need more neg camber on the DSpec/RCE setup with its softer spring rates, etc. etc.

Last edited by Arnie; 02-11-2010 at 01:27 PM.
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