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Old 02-11-2010, 01:21 PM   #201
antonch
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Tracks times are by far more dependent on the skill of the driver. Driver skill can show a variation of as much as 10seconds. Hardware variations are more on the order of 2 seconds tops.

It will be very hard to say that a car is faster due to a particular part rather than the driver himself.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:28 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD View Post
I just find a lot of people are trying to compare 1k coils to 2k+ coils. Rather unfair. And yes, I know there are 1k spring/strut setups... but those aren't height adjustable which is important to many people.

Not at all trying to defend the cheapo coils btw. When I buy, it won't be those.
You can do GC sleeves to get height adjustment and not spend much more than $1k on a full package.

The point of this thread is not to compare $1k to $2k systems. It is to show the massive limitations in terms of travel that the $1k options have. If you have $1k to spend you are much better off going with a spring/strut combo with GC sleeves if you need the height adjustment rather than go with the $1k coilovers.

There are guys running the crap coilovers and doing quite well on them on track (Phil from Element). But in his case...at least initially he was running custom valved units with very different spring rates, not to mention all the other modifications. I can't find them (and I'm not spending hours looking for them) but some of Phil's shots on track show the limited suspension travel he's got going on. If he swapped out that suspension for say...a JRZ setup I am 100% sure he would be faster.

Most of these $1k coilover manufacturers are not targeting track guys. They are targeting the street guys who think they need to have coilovers. The vendors that push these $1k coilovers do it because it's a great profit margin. The suspension focused vendors don't touch them because they have values when it comes to improving the handling of a car
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #203
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double post..
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #204
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yes those 1k coilover are focus on street.
In fact most coilover you see on the market are marketed for street use.

If you want real track coilover you should be getting penske shocks.
http://www.penskeshocks.com/
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:52 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815 View Post
yes those 1k coilover are focus on street.
In fact most coilover you see on the market are marketed for street use.

If you want real track coilover you should be getting penske shocks.
http://www.penskeshocks.com/
Everything sub $2k is marketed for street use. From $2k-$4k it's usually a combination and can perform quite well for just about anybody. Above $4k is when you get into the really good track stuff.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:53 PM   #206
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Quote:
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Even cheap coilovers would be 100% faster around a track compared to stock suspension (assuming that both were optimized as much as possible). The lower CoG, stiffer spring rates, better camber management of even a cheap coilover will trump a stock suspension. No question.

but it would be an interesting comparison between a BC/Megan and say, a DSpec/RCE spring (and some method to generate equal camber to the BC/Megan like double bolts/camber plates). Set all suspension to the same alignment/ride height specs, same tires, swaybars, etc. and see what happens. Actually, scratch that, I say simply optimize the setup for both systems independently. For example, one may need more neg camber on the DSpec/RCE setup with its softer spring rates, etc. etc.
Word.

I'd also be interested to see this. Tons of people seem to be talking about quality(or lack there of) just based on looking at the coilovers.

I'd love to see some direct comparisons. I had megan's on my S14... and I can tell you they sucked horribly... although still better than my eibach/tokico setup prior to that.

EDIT: Oh, and Dashi, I forgot about the GC sleeves. I was never really interested in them though because from what I remember height adjustment is only done from adjusting pre-load. Maybe I'm wrong...
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:18 PM   #207
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I've heard of a lot of cases of GC sleeves freezing up which IMO doesn't make them a good option. Even in areas w/o snow or salt. It's one of things you can adjust only once.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:22 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonch View Post
I've heard of a lot of cases of GC sleeves freezing up which IMO doesn't make them a good option. Even in areas w/o snow or salt. It's one of things you can adjust only once.
And we've seen just as many posts around here and IWSTI showing BC/Megan/Ksport/CCC's all bound up, never to be adjusted again. With any CO, you should be taking steps to prevent contamination of the threading. Some metal choices and treatments just give you a shorter or longer time before it matters.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:26 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Both of you, go watch the video that was posted into this thread. It shows my car using that much droop just driving down a normal road at the speed limit. It also shows me running out of droop travel and lifting a rear wheel pulling into a gas station.

Real life just uses way more suspension travel than you guys think it does!
I'll concede since I'm tired of arguing and the normal roads I drive on are way different than the one you show in the video. My roads are flat and straight with long vertical and long horizontal curves. If I find some free time I'll try and get a video like yours showing the roads I consider normal and how much suspension travel is used.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:57 PM   #210
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Don't forget that the rules of the racing venue can make a coil over choice attractive. For example, last year a Subaru in the NASA TT series, coil overs under a certain dollar value and no external reservoir were a no point upgrade. If you were on the bubble, then BCs would be attractive. This year I believe that has changed and any coil overs are assessed a spring upgrade penalty. Please any rule experts chime in to correct me.

Arnie makes a great point though, it would be interesting to see a comparison (obviously using the same driver).
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:00 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
And we've seen just as many posts around here and IWSTI showing BC/Megan/Ksport/CCC's all bound up, never to be adjusted again. With any CO, you should be taking steps to prevent contamination of the threading. Some metal choices and treatments just give you a shorter or longer time before it matters.
Ya, my Megan's seized but I had them on for a full Canadian winter.

I think it's common with most coils and isn't really something I think about when buying suspension. I'm gonna make sure to clean my next set more frequently and apply some sort of anti seize. It seemed to be sand and dirt that get lodged in the threads that caused the problem.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:17 PM   #212
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Thought this was an interesting review on the Bc's
http://www.i-club.com/forums/vbartic...e&articleid=10
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:22 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD View Post
Ya, my Megan's seized but I had them on for a full Canadian winter.

I think it's common with most coils and isn't really something I think about when buying suspension. I'm gonna make sure to clean my next set more frequently and apply some sort of anti seize. It seemed to be sand and dirt that get lodged in the threads that caused the problem.
yup, i've seen lots of coilovers with seized adjustment collars. Always use some anti-seize on the threaded surfaces and make sure you clean the threads before attempting to adjust them. Once you get that fine sand wedged in the threads, it doesn't matter how much heat or lube you use, it won't be coming loose.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:30 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Don't forget that the rules of the racing venue can make a coil over choice attractive. For example, last year a Subaru in the NASA TT series, coil overs under a certain dollar value and no external reservoir were a no point upgrade. If you were on the bubble, then BCs would be attractive. This year I believe that has changed and any coil overs are assessed a spring upgrade penalty. Please any rule experts chime in to correct me.

Arnie makes a great point though, it would be interesting to see a comparison (obviously using the same driver).
As far as I know, no coilovers, springs, or really any other suspension mods have ever been no-point mods in NASA TT.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:20 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie View Post
As far as I know, no coilovers, springs, or really any other suspension mods have ever been no-point mods in NASA TT.
Camber plates and strut bars are no point mods.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:27 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Don't forget that the rules of the racing venue can make a coil over choice attractive. For example, last year a Subaru in the NASA TT series, coil overs under a certain dollar value and no external reservoir were a no point upgrade. If you were on the bubble, then BCs would be attractive. This year I believe that has changed and any coil overs are assessed a spring upgrade penalty. Please any rule experts chime in to correct me.

Arnie makes a great point though, it would be interesting to see a comparison (obviously using the same driver).
This actually makes VERY good sense. There's no point to them.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:52 PM   #217
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Zing.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:47 PM   #218
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No zing to me, I don't own BCs and could care less. I'm just relaying why a buddy of mine went with them on his TTA car; kept him from being bumped into TTS where he would have gotten crushed based on his available budget.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:09 PM   #219
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This is all very interesting reading.

I was told somewhere once (in person at the track, not interwebs) There are 2 ways to accomplish the same thing (body roll). Stiffer sways and softer springs, or softer sways and stiffer springs.

I DD my car more than I track it. Koni inserts and springs with 27mm front and 22mm rear whiteline ways is a better fit for me and my budget than 2k+ CO.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:10 PM   #220
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There's a 3rd option: change the geometry. Which, frankly, is the best way to go.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:13 PM   #221
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explain?
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:24 PM   #222
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Move the roll center, move the center of gravity, etc
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:48 PM   #223
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maybe i should just read thru this whole thread. but what kind of car are we talking about here? a street car or a track car?
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:22 PM   #224
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Street. Although it applies just as much to a track car.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:05 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
Well,its a general discussion on droop/zero droop in regards to front and rear but one of the posters wanted to simplify the discussion by talking about the front wheels.

And though it is talking about formula fords, not exactly apples to apples, I think the basic principles may apply.

Agreed, it is a discussion for racing vehicles. But, that is the gist of my point. Where did this low droop design aesthetic come from on the cheap coilovers? They most likely copied from higher end race setups. So the discussion is: what is the purpose, benefit of the low droop setup?
Even Subaru built low droop suspensions. My friend had S202 takeoffs on his car and it only took 2-3 pumps on the jack to get the wheels off the ground. A stock GD was around 11 pumps.
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