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Old 02-03-2010, 11:52 PM   #1
Innovative Tuning
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and 06 STI daily

Default Stock location GT30R. 04 WRX Wagon. 2.5L block. ViPec standalone.

Event: dyno tuning
Location: Innovative Tuning. Buffalo, NY 14216
Ambient Temp: ~45
Elevation: ~700 feet above sea level
Weather: partly cloudy
Tires: snow

Car: 2004 WRX Wagon
Tuner: Mike at Innovative Tuning
Dyno Info: Mustang AWD 500 SE
Peak HP at RPM: 314
Peak Torque at RPM: 298
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 195-200 whp for 2008-9 STI 2.5L
Add 22-23% to our dyno numbers to get Airboy dyno numbers.
Target Boost: 22 peak tapering to 20
Target AFR: ~11.3 when over 16 psi
Fuel: 93 unleaded. No external injection.
Engine/Power Modifications:
Innovative Tuning stage 2+ shortblock with custom pistons to achieve standard compression with 2L WRX heads.
Innovative Tuning stage 2 rebuilt heads with modded stock STI cams.
ATP bolt on GT30R, catless uppipe, Deatschwerks injectors, walbro pump.
3" turbo back exhaust, FMIC, KS Tech 83mm CAI.

Driveline Modifications: upgraded clutch
Suspension Modifications: not relevent
Other Modifications: ViPec replacement ECU board, gauges



I left filtering on 15 so you can see how smooth this car runs on a standalone allowing proper timing control compared to the typical poor stock tune on a newer STI.

With over 55% more power than an 08 STI and a great powerband, this is a serious sleeper. I'm happy the clutch and transmission are taking it in stride so far.

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Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 02-09-2010 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:24 AM   #2
CatfaceType-R
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needs meth/alchy/water/ or e85, badly

so much left on the table, I wouldn't be very happy with that, even though it is ~365whp in reality with a stock location 30r

also for a rather nice setup, it doesn't hold power well at all to redline. Seriously though, that is pretty odd about how much power it loses to redline.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:25 AM   #3
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Is this a 2.5L or 2.0L? Modded STi cams , what has been done to them?

IDK this car makes Juan cry , there is a lot of money on this car, and I don't care if this is the lowest reading dyno in the world. This is 113....maybe a 114mph car and that disappoint me with such a nice setup
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Old 02-04-2010, 07:15 AM   #4
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This is my car, and I'm not the least bit disappointed with it.

I'm fully aware there's more on the table, but all I wanted was a uber-reliable and balls-out fun DD, and that's what it is.

The 650cc injectors leftover from my 205 days are limiting it some -- don't need to be bigger until I get a beefier transmission.

EDIT: 12/14/2011

Updated dyno plot at 30 months/ 30,000 miles on the build:




The trans and Exedy Stage1 clutch are still holding and the car averages 26.3mpg highway.

Last edited by Spenk; 12-14-2011 at 07:47 PM. Reason: dyno plot at 30K miles
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Old 02-04-2010, 08:29 AM   #5
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should a 30R drop off power like that?
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:09 AM   #6
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Is this a 2.5L or 2.0L? Modded STi cams , what has been done to them?

IDK this car makes Juan cry , there is a lot of money on this car, and I don't care if this is the lowest reading dyno in the world. This is 113....maybe a 114mph car and that disappoint me with such a nice setup
It's a 2.5L shortblock with 2L WRX heads that are not ported. The holes in the end of the stock STI cams have to be plugged so oil doesn't fire out of them when used in non AVCS WRX heads.

His 650cc injectors are maxed running 20 psi up top. I'm not a magician.

I don't claim the dyno reads any lower than it does. Based on what customers have done with power in this ballpark on our dyno in STIs (low 12's at low/mid teens on normal tires) your trap speed guess should be about right for this car at full weight, maybe a little better without having to get into 5th gear, but his tranny and clutch wouldn't survive drag passes and drag racing the car was never a build consideration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All4bSpinnin View Post
should a 30R drop off power like that?
I did a search and didn't find any GT30R setups with unported 2L WRX heads that held power better. The graphs that don't fall off much are cut off at 6500 RPM like this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
needs meth/alchy/water/ or e85, badly

so much left on the table, I wouldn't be very happy with that, even though it is ~365whp in reality with a stock location 30r
From what we've seen from running cars on our dyno and then on a Dynojet this would be in the 37X whp range. If it wasn't corrected for temperature it would be near 390 whp on a Dynojet.

At 20 psi on 93 octane where peak HP is made on unported 2L WRX heads I wouldn't expect to make any more than that without really pushing the engine hard and we were asked not to do that. I agreed that it would be pointless considering the clutch and tranny that are in the car. Frankly I don't expect them to last all that long with the power the car does make.

E85 is great stuff, but you can hardly get it anywhere in western NY so 99% of people can't be bothered. His fuel system also would have maxed out around 15 psi of boost on E85. Down the line with a lot more fill stations I'm sure more customers will consider running E85. For now the Ontario Pro Rally 2009 series overall champion is our only customer running it all the time, and a couple guys run it some of the time by draining their tanks which they rarely feel like doing. They keep playing with the mix at the pump so it's a real PITA for those who don't mix their own or have us do it. In other areas people seem to be getting E85 in more stable concentrations, but I don't want to get off topic.

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 02-04-2010 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:24 AM   #7
STi Mikey
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Guys,

This is the first time in a lonnnnnnnng while I have seen a facility using a mustang dyno that has not been tinkered with. Props to Innovative for keeping true to how a mustang dyno does and should read.

I was on a heart breaker once when I was running 100 octane on the stock vf43. I made 304whp, falling to 288 at redline. That was good enough for 114 traps.

On a dynojet, with SAE correction, this would be roughly 380 whp. Not bad for 650's.

The fall off up top isnt in the tune either. It was stated the injectors were maxed, so the car had no hope in the higher rpm. Im sure 335whp is attainable, reasonably with more fueling.

What I dont understand, and completely disagree with is:

30R, Vipec, 650's, 83mm maf.

WTF. Even if I owned that car and was broke I'd find a way to get 850's. On this dyno I would make just about 420-430 on racegas on my current setup, and Im only hitting 4.8 volts on my 75mm maf.

Good job with the Vipec, but I can't understand for the life of me why the money was spent there and not on fueling. Nonetheless, when she's all straightened out she will be a beast for sure!

Last edited by STi Mikey; 02-04-2010 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:47 AM   #8
Innovative Tuning
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Thanks Mikey. The number of shops with unmolested Mustang dynos seems to be dwindling quickly. I'm still holding out for now, but it is frustrating sometimes because people are getting so used to seeing numbers from jacked up ones.

I agree that with more fuel 335 whp is doable on pump gas on a bit more aggressive tune. That would put this over 400 whp on a Dynojet on pump gas, probably around 23-24 psi tapering to 22 psi. It already made over 320 whp without temperature correction at the current boost level.

I've found that on this dyno the atmospheric correction is pretty toned down and using it results in more repeatable results on different days due to changes in air density rather than drastically skewing numbers as atmospheric corrections do on some other dynos. For that reason I use it on all the graphs.

The 83mm CAI was a function of putting a great free flowing cold air intake on the car that wouldn't max out or cause funny MAF readings while the car was running this setup on a tuned stock ECU. The car doesn't need the MAF now, but I think KS Tech makes a great CAI so it stays.

The 650's are there because the customer and I didn't plan to go bigger than an Evo 3 16G which is what was on the car before the GT30R.

The 30R was an unplanned addition because the combination of the stock ECU detecting false knock on the built engine reducing timing coupled with the 2.5L block/unported 2L WRX head combo and the little hot side on the Evo 3 16G was making for some rather high EGTs. The larger hot side housing on the bolt on GT30R dropped EGTs significantly and while Spencer has taken the responsible approach to building the car so the engine isn't maxed out, everyone gets the power itch so the turbo change served both purposes.

Running a standalone was always part of the plan, but had to be put off. They aren't cheap. Now that it's on the car the false knock issue is a non issue and you can see how smooth the curves are now that I have full control over the ignition timing, even with filtering on 15 which is just about off. The EGTs are also down where they should be now because the timing advance can be set in the normal range.

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 02-04-2010 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:10 AM   #9
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Nice Spencer, Im currently maxing out the oem 16bit ecu with my build. My next big step is standalone aswell.

Nice tune as always!

Ian,
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:20 AM   #10
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Thanks, Ian!
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:22 AM   #11
STi Mikey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post

The 30R was an unplanned addition because the combination of the stock ECU detecting false knock on the built engine reducing timing coupled with the 2.5L block/unported 2L WRX head combo and the little hot side on the Evo 3 16G was making for some rather high EGTs. The larger hot side housing on the bolt on GT30R dropped EGTs significantly and while Spencer has taken the responsible approach to building the car so the engine isn't maxed out, everyone gets the power itch so the turbo change served both purposes.

Running a standalone was always part of the plan, but had to be put off. They aren't cheap. Now that it's on the car the false knock issue is a non issue and you can see how smooth the curves are now that I have full control over the ignition timing, even with filtering on 15 which is just about off. The EGTs are also down where they should be now because the timing advance can be set in the normal range.
Ahh, I see. I thought false knock was out of the picture (I missed that the 2.5 was built, I thought it was a stock 2.5l)

Good show!
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:23 PM   #12
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spenk, whats cookin man, cool setup! im sure it flies.

I wanna see #s with 850s/meth/strong tranny
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:29 PM   #13
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hmmm i could try to get my dyno graph from my tuner from my stock ej205 atp gt3076r setup but i was running alky and a 6speed.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown95ImpalaSS View Post
spenk, whats cookin man, cool setup! im sure it flies.

I wanna see #s with 850s/meth/strong tranny
Yo! Thanks for checkin' in.

Provided I don't kill myself in it, new tranny/injectors/tune next year.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:33 PM   #15
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good numbers from a good informative tuner.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:16 PM   #16
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Is there any reason you went with ViPec for engine managment, instead or sa AEM, or Hydra? I know ViPec has been doing EM for some time just notice most here in the states dont go that root. Not that it doesnt work great...

Was this a recomendation that Mike made?
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:42 AM   #17
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I asked Mike what would give him the best/most control over ignition timing and he said, "ViPec."

I wanted it smoooooooooth.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:43 AM   #18
Innovative Tuning
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and 06 STI daily

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Some examples of this extra timing control are:
The ability to eliminate timing drift entirely via an adjustable ignition delay function. This means that when I say I want 20 degrees of timing advance, the coils fire at 20 degrees before TDC whether the car is at idle or 7000 RPM. We check and adjust this with a timing light until it's right on. Obviously this is in addition to being able to set a global timing offset. While the 2L WRX doesn't have an adjustable CAS or distributor and the cam and crank sensors are fixed mounted, each car is slightly different than the next. In this case a timing offset of 1 degree was required to get the timing synced up just right.

Timing advance is adjustable to 0.1 of a degree.

Tables are fully adjustable from the number of rows and columns to the axes, data points etc. For example, you can start and drive a car with less than 10 cells filled in between the main fuel and timing tables, work up from there for a detailed tune, then reduce extraneous areas and allow the ECU to interpolate between areas. This allows you to have tons of detail where you need it, and reduce the amount of cells you need to adjust when making changes in other areas where you don't.

These ECUs are far more flexible than the others mentioned. Here are just a few of the trims I have set up on this car and how I'm using them.

Instead of a simple 2D IAT vs. ignition timing trim map I've set up a 3D IAT vs load ignition trimming map:
This allows me to reduce timing advance under higher loads if IATs get too hot. The more they go up and the higher the load, the more timing is pulled to avoid detonation. Since this is load based it doesn't have to affect idle and cruise areas. I also use this to adjust for high air density under load when it's real cold out.

Instead of a simple 2D coolant temperature vs. ignition timing trim map I've set up a 3D coolant temperature vs load ignition trimming:
This allows me to reduce ignition timing under load if the car starts to overheat to prevent detonation without reducing advance at light loads so EGTs stay down and help the engine cool down quicker (if it's going to cool down at all). I also use this to add timing advance near idle during cold warmups which helps the car run smooth when cold.


I've set up the rev limiter and overboost protection functions to be coolant temperature dependent. This gives you a bit more functionality than just plugging simple values in for these things.
It "reminds" the driver not to floor it or rev the car way out when it's not warmed up. As the car warms up, these limits progressively increase up to where they are during normal operation.
It also serves as an overheating warning and protection method. When the car gets too hot I reduce the rev limiter and boost limits progressively as the overheating condition gets worse to serve as another warning that something is up if the driver hasn't noticed the car is too hot, and forces them to stop beating on the car so it can cool down some.

I set the protection functions so they're non intrusive and will not kick on unless something is really wrong.

I've also set up a 4D ignition table using vehicle speed and manifold pressure as the axes to reduce timing at higher loads in 1st gear for a little tranny protection and at real high speeds for a little abuse protection. At real high speeds AND when over 15 psi I pull some timing out. This isn't a foolproof solution against one of the harshest things people do with their cars (top end runs), but it helps. In first gear the car may not see 15+ psi so I roll the trim in starting at a lower boost pressure on a car like this to take a little strain off the transmission while keeping the turbo spooled so full power can be put down in second gear. This is also useful in traction limited vehicles as a function to get you close to the traction limit and then let traction control take care of the rest. Oh yea...this ECU has that too. I did set up gear calculation so I could have set this table up as gear vs. manifold pressure, but with wheelspin and changing wheels/tires which could affect gear sensing I've found that doesn't work as well in some situations.

Basically the possibilities are just about endless compared to systems like AEM and Hydra. With the ViPec a great deal of functionality is there and each tuner can use as much or as little of it as they chose. The tuner's ability to think of good ways to make use of the flexibility determines how useful the system is, rather than being stuck with everything pre-programmed a certain way on other systems, usually with limited functionality. My mechanics do the wrenching here so I pretty much tune cars 6 days a week. When you tune cars that much you really appreciate being able to make an engine management system do what you want and it gives me an opportunity to implement functions that I've found useful over the years.
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:27 AM   #19
rexworx
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Great thanks Mike!

Also thanks for taking the time to explain etc over the phone earlier. Its nice to have the person on the other end really explain verses, yes no I dont have time...
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:32 AM   #20
STi Mikey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
Some examples of this extra timing control are:
The ability to eliminate timing drift entirely via an adjustable ignition delay function. This means that when I say I want 20 degrees of timing advance, the coils fire at 20 degrees before TDC whether the car is at idle or 7000 RPM. We check and adjust this with a timing light until it's right on. Obviously this is in addition to being able to set a global timing offset. While the 2L WRX doesn't have an adjustable CAS or distributor and the cam and crank sensors are fixed mounted, each car is slightly different than the next. In this case a timing offset of 1 degree was required to get the timing synced up just right.

Timing advance is adjustable to 0.1 of a degree.

Tables are fully adjustable from the number of rows and columns to the axes, data points etc. For example, you can start and drive a car with less than 10 cells filled in between the main fuel and timing tables, work up from there for a detailed tune, then reduce extraneous areas and allow the ECU to interpolate between areas. This allows you to have tons of detail where you need it, and reduce the amount of cells you need to adjust when making changes in other areas where you don't.

These ECUs are far more flexible than the others mentioned. Here are just a few of the trims I have set up on this car and how I'm using them.

Instead of a simple 2D IAT vs. ignition timing trim map I've set up a 3D IAT vs load ignition trimming map:
This allows me to reduce timing advance under higher loads if IATs get too hot. The more they go up and the higher the load, the more timing is pulled to avoid detonation. Since this is load based it doesn't have to affect idle and cruise areas. I also use this to adjust for high air density under load when it's real cold out.

Instead of a simple 2D coolant temperature vs. ignition timing trim map I've set up a 3D coolant temperature vs load ignition trimming:
This allows me to reduce ignition timing under load if the car starts to overheat to prevent detonation without reducing advance at light loads so EGTs stay down and help the engine cool down quicker (if it's going to cool down at all). I also use this to add timing advance near idle during cold warmups which helps the car run smooth when cold.


I've set up the rev limiter and overboost protection functions to be coolant temperature dependent. This gives you a bit more functionality than just plugging simple values in for these things.
It "reminds" the driver not to floor it or rev the car way out when it's not warmed up. As the car warms up, these limits progressively increase up to where they are during normal operation.
It also serves as an overheating warning and protection method. When the car gets too hot I reduce the rev limiter and boost limits progressively as the overheating condition gets worse to serve as another warning that something is up if the driver hasn't noticed the car is too hot, and forces them to stop beating on the car so it can cool down some.

I set the protection functions so they're non intrusive and will not kick on unless something is really wrong.

I've also set up a 4D ignition table using vehicle speed and manifold pressure as the axes to reduce timing at higher loads in 1st gear for a little tranny protection and at real high speeds for a little abuse protection. At real high speeds AND when over 15 psi I pull some timing out. This isn't a foolproof solution against one of the harshest things people do with their cars (top end runs), but it helps. In first gear the car may not see 15+ psi so I roll the trim in starting at a lower boost pressure on a car like this to take a little strain off the transmission while keeping the turbo spooled so full power can be put down in second gear. This is also useful in traction limited vehicles as a function to get you close to the traction limit and then let traction control take care of the rest. Oh yea...this ECU has that too. I did set up gear calculation so I could have set this table up as gear vs. manifold pressure, but with wheelspin and changing wheels/tires which could affect gear sensing I've found that doesn't work as well in some situations.

Basically the possibilities are just about endless compared to systems like AEM and Hydra. With the ViPec a great deal of functionality is there and each tuner can use as much or as little of it as they chose. The tuner's ability to think of good ways to make use of the flexibility determines how useful the system is, rather than being stuck with everything pre-programmed a certain way on other systems, usually with limited functionality. My mechanics do the wrenching here so I pretty much tune cars 6 days a week. When you tune cars that much you really appreciate being able to make an engine management system do what you want and it gives me an opportunity to implement functions that I've found useful over the years.
AWSOME POST!!
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:36 AM   #21
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Sounds pretty complex.....i mean do you really need a 3d coolant temp table? Especially on a car making 315 whp?

And how do you go about tuning a table like that? Do you purposefully get the coolant temps hot on the dyno? Turn the fans off in the shop and disconnect the radiator fans? And somehow increase the temp in 5* increments and then go through every load and rpm to tune at that temp? While at the same time tuning any intake air temperature timing tables? And how do you tune the cooler temps? IE anything below 170* before the car is warmed up?

Im all for spending money, but this seems like a waste to me......IMO he should have gone with a nice cam instead and been able to hold at least 315whp at redline....or taken that $2000 and put it towards a clutch and transmission so he could actually utilize the power.

And i can only imagine the $$ spent on dyno time.....making tables from scratch and all.

Its a great setup and im sure the owners happy, but i would have thought a clutch, tranny and cam would be significantly higher on any wrx owners priority list than a full standalone.....especially when utilizing a stock location turbo.
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Old 02-05-2010, 12:43 PM   #22
Innovative Tuning
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Thanks folks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Sounds pretty complex.....i mean do you really need a 3d coolant temp table? Especially on a car making 315 whp?

And how do you go about tuning a table like that? Do you purposefully get the coolant temps hot on the dyno? Turn the fans off in the shop and disconnect the radiator fans? And somehow increase the temp in 5* increments and then go through every load and rpm to tune at that temp? While at the same time tuning any intake air temperature timing tables? And how do you tune the cooler temps? IE anything below 170* before the car is warmed up?
Like I said, if someone isn't comfortable using all the features they don't have to. I've never used all of them on a single car.

It's safe to assume that a car that's overheating shouldn't run full timing advance in boost because it will be more prone to detonating. I don't need to induce the condition on each individual car to know that. If I pull a degree more than the bare minimum to avoid knock while the car is overheating does it really matter? This isn't an F1 car where maximum effort is required under all conditions. I simply implement this as a safety measure.

I only added some timing around idle when the car is real cold. That gets rolled off completely by 80 F.

I use IAT timing corrections that have worked well in boost on other subarus and other cars in general with other standalones, tuned stock ECUs etc. Being able to implement them only while over a certain amount of boost just makes it do exactly what I want instead of almost doing what I want by decreasing timing across the board when over a certain IAT. Again I don't tune for maximum effort on the edge of knock under all possible conditions in a temperature controlled room.


Quote:
I'm all for spending money, but this seems like a waste to me......IMO he should have gone with a nice cam instead and been able to hold at least 315whp at redline....or taken that $2000 and put it towards a clutch and transmission so he could actually utilize the power.

And i can only imagine the $$ spent on dyno time.....making tables from scratch and all.

Its a great setup and im sure the owners happy, but i would have thought a clutch, tranny and cam would be significantly higher on any wrx owners priority list than a full standalone.....especially when utilizing a stock location turbo.
The cam upgrade to the stock STI cams while the engine was already being build is super cheap since they were used cams. It was done as a "might as well" type of deal and spending the money for new aftermarket cams was out of the question. There's always more that can be done, but more wasn't necessary to meet his goals and you have to stop somewhere.

The stock ECU was detecting false knock. It picked up around 50 foot lbs of torque on our dyno with this ECU because I could set the timing where I wanted it without the ECU thinking something was wrong. In the future after the driveline and injector upgrades I'm sure he'll have us crank it up a bit, but the car already makes more power than he was building towards.

I'm pretty confident you're assuming the tuning cost him more than it did. I tune standalones at a reasonable flat rate which includes the tuning, dyno time, road testing, and support after the tune. He didn't ask me to tune these additional tables and unless he's read what I added this morning he probably doesn't know they exist. I take that upon myself because I'm very particular when I tune cars and I want them to come out as well as they can from drivability to reliability/consistency to power considering the customer's requested margin of safety and so on. You're absolutely right about the time involved. I spend a lot of hours on standalones over multiple days, but this car runs better than stock. It starts instantly like a stock car even when stone cold in 20 degree weather like we've been having here. It idles well at my targets depending on coolant temperature, falls to idle very nicely, uses closed loop trimming when out of boost and over a certain temperature so it will get gas mileage like it did on a tuned stock ECU, etc.

Everyone's build goals, usage and budget are different. In this case we knew we'd hit his power goal without aftermarket cams. We did suggest a heavier duty clutch, but he wasn't ready for a built tranny or 6 speed as that's a big expense which a lot of people have to put off, so he decided on a clutch that wouldn't engage as violently as some of the higher capacity ones for a little piece of mind. It also wouldn't make sense to get a big nasty WRX clutch when the gears would give out long before the clutch and you may put a 6 speed in the car later anyways. I understand his logic and given the situation his choices make sense to me.

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 02-05-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:28 AM   #23
moreboost
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Great work Mike!! Nice to see some more ongoing projects from your shop.

Mark
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:31 AM   #24
piddster
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Mike, I wish you were in my neck of the woods to do a little bit of work with my Link G2/G4 when I get to that point.



Also, nice standalones are ftw. I won't do it any other way.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:02 PM   #25
Equilibrium Tuning
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Cool info on the ViPec... I'll have to check it out on one of our builds. I do wonder, however, why the stock ECU was picking up false knock? We've built many engines and I've tuned a lot of other built engines as well and I don't generally find this to be an issue. I've seen a couple extremely loud built engines do this, but in general I find that false knock is caused by something else hitting under the hood and in some cases it can be caused by wiring or bad grounds. Of course nothing is out of the question, but it is strange in this case.

The drop-off on the top end is also quite strange even with unported EJ205 heads. Is this a GT3071 or GT3076?

Thanks
-- Ed

-- Ed
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