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Old 03-10-2005, 06:16 PM   #1
racepimp
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Default Tell me about freeze tempering

I bought a OEM intercooler on ebay with a cryotreatment done to it, supposedly "freeze tempering it." I got the thing cheap enough that if it was a sham, I wouldn't be that pissed.

With that being said, I work in racing with a team that spares no expense when it comes to performance, and I have never heard of such a treatment. Does anyone have any experiances with this? How good does it actually work?

If nothing else, it will be nice to have a spare.
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Old 03-10-2005, 06:22 PM   #2
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it's usually called cryotreating - for some steels with a certain internal structure (I won't get into details here) it can result in an increase in physical properties. For an aluminum intercooler, it will do absolutely nothing.
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Old 03-10-2005, 07:08 PM   #3
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DrD- Nice.
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Old 03-10-2005, 09:14 PM   #4
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Actually, cryogenic treatments work on any metal that response to heat treating.
Here is one place that does a lot or work for companys and racing teams, with a few links to how the process works and such:
http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/motorsport-brochure5.htm

http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/manuf...manmarch98.htm

If your race team doesn't spare any expense, then cryo treatments are only good for complete motors/transmissions where there can be a small HP gain. Most of the benifits of cryo treatments are better heat loading and thus longer wear life of the parts. If they don't care about money then they probably don't care about wear.

That being said, on an intercooler, its probably not going to do anything except more even heat transfer, which probably won't make any noticeable difference.
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:15 AM   #5
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Last edited by LyveWRX; 03-11-2005 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 03-12-2005, 01:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrD
it's usually called cryotreating - for some steels with a certain internal structure (I won't get into details here) it can result in an increase in physical properties. For an aluminum intercooler, it will do absolutely nothing.
Its awesome, how much you thing you know.

I talked to an expert (metallurgist) and it turns out that it will bring it better heat exchanging capabilities.

So thank you for not confusing my inferior brain with your "details"
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:30 AM   #7
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racepimp- How many experts do you want on this one....


I am an expert in metals and I agree with DrD, cryo treating cannot through any known physical method alter the thermal conductivity of aluminium alloys. There is no mechanism for this, ie. it really couldnt happen.

Feel free to ask your buddy to explain this in terms of free NRG, or even a microstructural level. Heck just have him post in this thread how cryotreatment changes the thermal conductivity of Al alloys and we can clear this up real fast.
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:55 AM   #8
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I agree with DrD and LyveWRX. There are parts that definitely benefit from cryo-treatment, like brake rotors, gearsets, etc.

Unfortunately, there are also con-artists in the cryo-treating business who will try to sell you lots of unnecessary services and will claim gains on anything from aluminum to plastic parts. Cryo-treating will do nothing whatsoever for an intercooler. If you got it for the price of a normal intercooler, then it's fine. If you paid extra, you got screwed.
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racepimp
I talked to an expert (metallurgist) and it turns out that it will bring it better heat exchanging capabilities.

So thank you for not confusing my inferior brain with your "details"
ok, big guy, have your friend the "expert" explain what happens - microstructurally - to the material which gives it these increased properties.

As a Ph.D. metallurgist, I am just dying to know what I missed during my edjumacation.
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Old 03-12-2005, 02:53 PM   #10
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Well, I don't know who to believe. A snotty internet metallurgist, or Larry Childs from Design-it Prototype.

Either way, it seems that it doesn't matter at this point. A spare i/c seems like a good deal at 40 bones.

Thanks to all of you who had some sort of repectful post.

Last edited by racepimp; 03-12-2005 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:46 PM   #11
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for carbon steels with retained austenite, it drives the material below the martensite start temp, transforming the remaining austenite to martensite - the resulting material is far more resistant to dislocation motion (i.e., plastic flow) and as such has a higher strength and wear properties. This is why it can make a difference with things like brake rotors and other steel parts - but it doesn't always - the steel must have a portion which is available to transform in order for anything to happen.

In aluminum alloys, there are no low temperature phase transformations - it is fundamentally stable - i.e., it doesn't change as the temperature drops. Plus - here's another fun bit of info for you - aluminum alloys transform (age due to second phase precipitation, anneal out dislocations, etc.) at very low temperatures - some even at room temperature - so even if changes did occur during the drop in temperature, they would be rapidly undone the first time they were exposed to elevated temperatures.

Not sure why stating that someone else is wrong and requesting the facts which they based their opinions on is arrogance. But then, I'm not a child.
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:52 PM   #12
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wow - that's like three edits in less than an hour - I went from arrogant to snotty!
Excellent
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:55 PM   #13
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[quote=DrD]for carbon steels with retained austenite, it drives the material below the martensite start temp, transforming the remaining austenite to martensite - the resulting material is far more resistant to dislocation motion (i.e., plastic flow) and as such has a higher strength and wear properties. This is why it can make a difference with things like brake rotors and other steel parts - but it doesn't always - the steel must have a portion which is available to transform in order for anything to happen.

This all makes you sound like a metallurgist, but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I'm still reluctant believing anything you say, since it sounds like everything you're saying is copied out of a book and is only half relevant. I don't think you have all of the information necessary to give me a real answer to my question. Thanks anyway
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:58 PM   #14
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You're arrogant and snotty, sorry.
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Old 03-12-2005, 05:15 PM   #15
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rp, there's no need to get defensive just because someone who knows what he's talking about gives you an answer you don't want to hear.
  • You asked a question (post #1).
  • DrD gave a quick answer (#2) without details.
  • Others pretty much agreed w/DrD.
  • You reported that your guy said DrD was wrong. You didn't give details, but you rudely slammed DrD for not giving details. (#6)
  • Others (who said they were experts) again agreed with DrD.
  • DrD (snottily, but after provocation) asked you for details. (#9)
  • Rather than provide or ask about facts/details, and ignoring all non-DrD replies, you conveniently decided it didn't matter after all. (#10)
  • DrD provided the details you had asked for (#11)
  • You either didn't understand or didn't like the details, so you (wrongly) said they had nothing to do with the issue. For good measure, you (also wrongly) decided that DrD didn't have all the info to give you a "real" answer.

Now, I'm only a biologist, but here's what I understood from DrD's answer: metals are not uniform; they can have different molecular structures in different portions, and these different molecular structures can have different physical properties (e.g. strength, wear resistance). In certain carbon steels, a less desireable structure (austenite) can be converted to a more desireable structure (martensite) by cryotreating. However, in aluminum, there are no such low-temp conversions. Thus, the cryotreatment won't do anything for aluminum stuff, including your intercooler.

Before you start calling others snotty, you may want to stock up on Kleenex yourself.
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racepimp
You're arrogant and snotty, sorry.
The double whammy!

I love when people who have literally no clue as to what they are talking about try to tell someone else they are wrong, even when they themselves have access to absolutely no data to support their belief - that's my favorite.

Maybe you should cryo-treat your whole car - think of how much stronger it would be! it might even be a match for the mighty SRT4!

if I am arrogant and snotty, then you are without question childish and uninformed.
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:23 PM   #17
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I'm gonna cryotreat my manhood, so i can last longer!!!!!
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaOctamopus View Post
I'm gonna cryotreat my manhood, so i can last longer!!!!!
your balls will be treated with extreme cold to reach temperatures of near abosolute zero. So expect your manhood to shrink to the size of grain of sand..
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:05 AM   #19
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W/out some basic understanding of chemistry and physics, anyone who looks at crytreatment is likely to say: blah.. not worth it..
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:16 AM   #20
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:21 AM   #21
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now I'm no metallurgist.

I thought cryotreating increased the amount of grain boundaries (more grains). This would mean that the heat would have to cross more grain boundaries as it propogates through the metal. I would think this would slow down heat xfer if anything.

Turbine blades are cooled SUPER SLOWLY so that they have no grain boundaries, literally a single crystal of metal. Less grain boundaries equal more ductility, less hardness, and a more nonlinear stress-strain curve. This is done so they have uniform heat transfer, uniform thermal expansion, and no grain boundaries that can become the initiation of a fatigue crack. this is why the messerschmidt german jet blew up on the runway 50% of the time, they cooled the turbine blade castings too fast and they blew up from uneven thermal expansion.

bottom line, i dont see any way cryo treating an IC will increase its effectiveness.

What do u think would xfer heat better, a block of sandstone or a pane of glass (yeah yeah, its amorphous, whatever)??
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racepimp View Post
You're arrogant and snotty, sorry.
And you are a crybaby who cannot accept, or at least attempt to refute, an answer contrary to his beliefs.


EDIT: Ooops. Old thread is old. Oh, well.
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