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Old 02-10-2010, 08:44 AM   #1
chlnOrSlpn?
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Default 2006 2.5L STi Perrin GT35R/ EFI Logics Tuned- 372whp/364wtq @23psi

Numbers
Dyno: Mustang
Tuner: Chris @ EFI Logics
Wheel HP: 390whp UNCORRECTED/ 372whp CORRECTED
Wheel TQ: 383wtq UNCORRECTED/ 364wtq CORRECTED
Target Boost: 23psi
Target AFR: 11.3
Fuel: 93 Octane pump gas
Ambient Temp: ~25*
Elevation: ~350 ft

Car Info
Year: 2006
Engine Management: Open Source
Turbo: Garrett GT35R .82a/r
Intercooler: APS DR525
Meth Kit: none
Injectors: DW740cc
Intake/Inlet: Perrin Rotated CAI
Headers: Perrin EL headers
Uppipe: Perrin
Downpipe: Perrin
CBE: Invidia G200
Other Power Mods: Grimmspeed EBCS, Tial Q BOV, Walbro 255 FP, NGK plugs, Perrin Big MAF....Stock Motor.




My previous GT3076R .63a/r vs Current GT35R .82a/r




I always have a great experience at EFI logics, Chris is great at what he does. I plan on adding a clutch, Meth, TGV deletes, and Perrin fuel rails later down the road.

I know some will ask why 740cc injectors? Well I had them on my 30R and they were more than enough for my power goals. I'm still on the Stock block, clutch and fuel rails with 58k miles.
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Last edited by chlnOrSlpn?; 02-19-2010 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:52 AM   #2
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FYI: I had the Perrin 35R kit on my 07 STI w/ the same mods as yours plus:

TGV deletes, 850cc DWs, 255 walboro, and KS Tech 83mm MAF.

I made 405whp @ EFI Logics. So with those extra mods, you can break the 400whp mark.

(p.s. I have the 83mm intake, fuel pump and 850 DWs 4 sale)
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:00 AM   #3
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very stout
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:06 AM   #4
chlnOrSlpn?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpunlamd View Post
FYI: I had the Perrin 35R kit on my 07 STI w/ the same mods as yours plus:

TGV deletes, 850cc DWs, 255 walboro, and KS Tech 83mm MAF.

I made 405whp @ EFI Logics. So with those extra mods, you can break the 400whp mark.

(p.s. I have the 83mm intake, fuel pump and 850 DWs 4 sale)
Carl, I'm actually the one that purchased the kit from you

My injectors are at 95%, but that won't be an issue with some Meth injection. For now the power is definitely more than enough, but I'll get the itch soon. I can't really go any further until I get a clutch to hold some more power.

I want that KSTech 83mm MAF, I'm trying to find a good time to head back to Jersey.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:14 AM   #5
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You should do an airboy plot. Im very curious on how our set ups line up. 23psi is some good boost on a stock motor 35R car, especially on pump. Im surprised the injectors are not running static after 5500-6000. My 850's on 23 psi on a stock location 35r "sized" turbo run static from 6900-7100, so 1000's are on the way!!

Have you ever used the airboy software?
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:47 AM   #6
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NICE as always! Great job EFI!
Enjoy the ride!!!

Alan
-JNA Performance-
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:08 PM   #7
chlnOrSlpn?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
You should do an airboy plot. Im very curious on how our set ups line up. 23psi is some good boost on a stock motor 35R car, especially on pump. Im surprised the injectors are not running static after 5500-6000. My 850's on 23 psi on a stock location 35r "sized" turbo run static from 6900-7100, so 1000's are on the way!!

Have you ever used the airboy software?
I have never used the airboy software nor any sort of tuning software. is it determined by inputting log info? Is it Mac friendly?

If I swap injectors I will want to stay side feed and probably go with 850's unless DW1000's are soon to be an option.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chlnOrSlpn? View Post
I have never used the airboy software nor any sort of tuning software. is it determined by inputting log info? Is it Mac friendly?

If I swap injectors I will want to stay side feed and probably go with 850's unless DW1000's are soon to be an option.
I dont know why it wouldnt be. All you do is take a log. That log is saved somewhere (my documents for me). You open the spreadsheet, and click an import button. Then you click another button that filters everything but WOT data.

then you input your car and weight, and it calculates.

Its awsome, and easy to use. Its a low reading dyno at the same time, 350whp on that dyno is good enough to throw you back in your seat.

The 750's are close to maxed. You should go back a few pages in my thread and look up the IDCactual equation (i forgot it off hand). Via the equation, you can see the true IDC at certain RPM. Mine was off by about 1.5-2% from what data logging showed.

If your staying stock motor, the 850's are a good idea for a conservative tune. If you build, they will serve you no justice. On my stock location turbo, they were maxed on pump, and even on racegas I had to pull back. Even with 16 more octane points and running it lean, my injectors had no prayer.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:11 PM   #9
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Thanks for the info, I will look into the airboy software.

I plan on staying with the stock motor hopfully until it reaches 80-100k miles but if I build I'll most likely go bigger.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:21 PM   #10
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Some pretty good numbers sir.
I can't waith to see what my 35r will do
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:52 AM   #11
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wow! almost same spoolup v/s the 30r. thats sweet
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:27 PM   #12
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wow! almost same spoolup v/s the 30r. thats sweet
Yeh, It doesn't feel laggy on the street either as long as you have the car in the right gear.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:17 PM   #13
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Honestly I was thinking a 35r would put up alot better numbers than that. I expect to put down the same numbers on a green or atleast close. Not trying to give you a hard time just wondering.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:03 PM   #14
chlnOrSlpn?
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Honestly I was thinking a 35r would put up alot better numbers than that. I expect to put down the same numbers on a green or atleast close. Not trying to give you a hard time just wondering.
It's on a Mustang Dyno, which usually puts down lower numbers than any other dyno. I made 390whp on the dyno that day, but when you factor in SAE Corrections(which most don't do) you get the numbers on the graph above. I also get tuned more conservative than others because I don't plan on building my block anytime soon.

I am restricted by a couple things, a Clutch and Injectors. My 740cc's are almost maxed and therefore need to be upgraded to make more without Meth or Race Fuel. My clutch won't really hold much more power without wearing out quickly...The 35R needs boost to make respectable power on a Subie.


Here is My 35R vs FP Green 06 STi:

*not too far off in peak numbers, but look at the midrange


Last edited by chlnOrSlpn?; 02-11-2010 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:24 PM   #15
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Yeah I just noticed your 740's. How much boost does a 35r really shine.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:30 PM   #16
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Well on pump gas it won't really shine unless you have a built block.

I'd say 25+psi on Meth or Race fuel is where they start to shine.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:57 AM   #17
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You have some decent gas to run 23psi of boost.

FWIW, on cali 91 octane, I could only run 19psi. I was initially running 20-21psi but it was too much "on the edge" so I asked to back it off. If I had some forged pistons I would have kept it up on the edge.....but I'm still on the stocker.
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:04 AM   #18
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congrats on the new setup. looks like you'll be having fun. good guys there at EFI
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:13 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
You have some decent gas to run 23psi of boost.

FWIW, on cali 91 octane, I could only run 19psi. I was initially running 20-21psi but it was too much "on the edge" so I asked to back it off. If I had some forged pistons I would have kept it up on the edge.....but I'm still on the stocker.

93 octane FTW! I've gone to the same gas station for the past 2 years and it's done me well.

I've been tuned to 23psi for about the last year or so, maybe even more. I change turbo setups so damn much I forget. I have no doubt my stocker will make it to my goal.
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Old 02-15-2010, 08:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
You have some decent gas to run 23psi of boost.

FWIW, on cali 91 octane, I could only run 19psi. I was initially running 20-21psi but it was too much "on the edge" so I asked to back it off. If I had some forged pistons I would have kept it up on the edge.....but I'm still on the stocker.
Im still trying to figure out how octane really effects the boost you can run.

How does the amount of air you're putting in the engine effect the necessary octane?

Evo's run 30+ psi on pump gas. Some subaru guys have gone over 30 psi on pump iirc. I've gotten to 32 psi on 91+meth (~94-95 octane) with the HTA Green......and back in 2003-2004 i pegged my blitz boost controller at 33psi on 91 octane with a 60 lb/min turbo.

Mikey and i had a long chat about this the other night. Think about how the subaru ecu is setup. It pulls ignition timing for best available octane throught the IAM. IE, from the factory the timing maps are setup for maximum octane.....then based on what each individual is putting in their cars the IAM adjusts itself to the octane. The ecu doesnt pull boost....it pulls timing. The ecu only "pulls boost" based on atmospheric pressure (IE altitude) to keep the turbo working efficiently.

I think people can run more boost than they think on pump gas, but several things have played into the myth of max pump gas boost.

1) The stock 2.5 bar MAP sensor and loss of overboost fuel cut above 21-24 psi (altitude dependant). This has long been the culprit of the 23-24 psi max boost level on pump gas.

2) Tuners' ease of tuning similar setups vs actually tuning each setup individually. IE, if you have a tuner thats done 20 FP Greens on pump with similar injectors, intakes, loads, etc on the stock MAP sensor and you go get a tune with a 3.5 bar MAP sensor you're most likely gonna end up with the same tune as the guys with the 2.5 bar sensor limiting you're peak boost to 23 psi. Its alot easier for the tuner to keep the loads, timing and boost the same than to redo all the loads on your timing and fueling maps and then redo the content of those maps.

3) There used to be a 17-18 psi max pump gas myth on vf turbos in 2002-2004. That is long gone.

If you just think about the air that a gt35 is putting in the motor at 23 psi on pump and compare that to any smaller turbo........why would the smaller turbos ever be pump gas limited on boost? Any smaller turbo at any boost is going to be putting significantly less air into the motor.....so why is there a pump gas limitation on the smaller turbos?

There may indeed be a octane limit for boost.....but i think the autoignition point (knock threshold) is more based on ignition timing and not so much on the air in the motor. You may have to significantly reduce the timing to be able to run 30 psi on a subie with a gt35 on pump gas......but i know for a fact that its possible cause ive done it. You can max your turbo on any octane and the IAM & knock corrections will let you know what the appropriate ignition timing is......but again this is not an easy method for tuners to use on customer cars and tuning for max boost on pump gas is more prone to knock events during tuning than all the tried and true 23 psi setups and premade maps the tuners are already working with.

thoughts?

ps: this is an interesting read. although its not really about boost.....it goes over the other parameters.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasol...section-1.html
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im still trying to figure out how octane really effects the boost you can run.

How does the amount of air you're putting in the engine effect the necessary octane?

Evo's run 30+ psi on pump gas. Some subaru guys have gone over 30 psi on pump iirc. I've gotten to 32 psi on 91+meth (~94-95 octane) with the HTA Green......and back in 2003-2004 i pegged my blitz boost controller at 33psi on 91 octane with a 60 lb/min turbo.

Mikey and i had a long chat about this the other night. Think about how the subaru ecu is setup. It pulls ignition timing for best available octane throught the IAM. IE, from the factory the timing maps are setup for maximum octane.....then based on what each individual is putting in their cars the IAM adjusts itself to the octane. The ecu doesnt pull boost....it pulls timing. The ecu only "pulls boost" based on atmospheric pressure (IE altitude) to keep the turbo working efficiently.

I think people can run more boost than they think on pump gas, but several things have played into the myth of max pump gas boost.

1) The stock 2.5 bar MAP sensor and loss of overboost fuel cut above 21-24 psi (altitude dependant). This has long been the culprit of the 23-24 psi max boost level on pump gas.

2) Tuners' ease of tuning similar setups vs actually tuning each setup individually. IE, if you have a tuner thats done 20 FP Greens on pump with similar injectors, intakes, loads, etc on the stock MAP sensor and you go get a tune with a 3.5 bar MAP sensor you're most likely gonna end up with the same tune as the guys with the 2.5 bar sensor limiting you're peak boost to 23 psi. Its alot easier for the tuner to keep the loads, timing and boost the same than to redo all the loads on your timing and fueling maps and then redo the content of those maps.

3) There used to be a 17-18 psi max pump gas myth on vf turbos in 2002-2004. That is long gone.

If you just think about the air that a gt35 is putting in the motor at 23 psi on pump and compare that to any smaller turbo........why would the smaller turbos ever be pump gas limited on boost? Any smaller turbo at any boost is going to be putting significantly less air into the motor.....so why is there a pump gas limitation on the smaller turbos?

There may indeed be a octane limit for boost.....but i think the autoignition point (knock threshold) is more based on ignition timing and not so much on the air in the motor. You may have to significantly reduce the timing to be able to run 30 psi on a subie with a gt35 on pump gas......but i know for a fact that its possible cause ive done it. You can max your turbo on any octane and the IAM & knock corrections will let you know what the appropriate ignition timing is......but again this is not an easy method for tuners to use on customer cars and tuning for max boost on pump gas is more prone to knock events during tuning than all the tried and true 23 psi setups and premade maps the tuners are already working with.

thoughts?

ps: this is an interesting read. although its not really about boost.....it goes over the other parameters.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasol...section-1.html

Ron, the answer is........................there's more than one answer.

You CAN run a boatload of boost......but you have to back your timing off severely. Doesn't Slorice have a 601whp pump gas evo from Buschur? I bet it runs 0* of timing. yes, 0.....maybe even -

When you run this little timing, your EGT's go thru the roof. The EGT's create hot spots in the cylinder (especially when doing long pulls or multiple pulls). You aint gonna do this in a track car obviously.

Larger turbo's run more cylinder pressure due to the mass of oxygen they produce.........bottom line. This is more temperature........bottom line.

It would be really cool to have compressor outlet temps of a 35r at 5k with 23psi of boost and a vf39 at 5k with 23psi of boost.

You can run more boost and less timing, but it's at the expense of other components. We've come a long way in 8 years or more with these cars.........and there's still a bunch of learing to do. Subaru tuners are still the "lets throw timing at it to make up for the inefficiency" stage. And most are scared of EGT's. I'd bet this comes full circle in a few years.

Evo's can also get away with it due to the engine. Bore is smaller, the combustion chamber is different, the intake and exhaust runners are more efficient, piston design is different..............they all add up to higher VE and less prone to detonation. Those engines run WAY less timing than us. Less timing is a sure sign of efficiency.

I believe the bottom line is that the increased pressure (heat) combined with the lower timing (more heat) creates a tune that is farther "on the edge" than one with less boost, with a *slightly* richer AFR and "conservative" timing. I aint gonna lie tho....if I had forged pistons...........I'd try ALOT more PSI on pump gas.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:34 PM   #22
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Definately not running anywhere near 0 or negative timing in my Evo at 30psi on pump gas. In fact, I would say its close to where the stock Evo timing is.

Motors are just a big air pump. The faster and more efficient you can get it in and out, the more you can run through it. The power in an Evo is in the head/cam combo.

p.s. - things are getting a little redone this year.....
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:42 PM   #23
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Definately not running anywhere near 0 or negative timing in my Evo at 30psi on pump gas. In fact, I would say its close to where the stock Evo timing is.

Motors are just a big air pump. The faster and more efficient you can get it in and out, the more you can run through it. The power in an Evo is in the head/cam combo.

p.s. - things are getting a little redone this year.....
640whp 9.91@146 and you're redoing things? oh man
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