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Old 02-16-2010, 12:59 PM   #1
HamFist
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Default 400+ torque on a VF?

I searched. It seems like the only ones who have broken or tickled 400tq run 2.5L, meth injection, nitrous, etc on their VF turbos. These cars barely need to do 375/400 to run high 11s. I honestly think the 2.0/vf30 I tuned will tickle 300wtq or better. 400 at the crank is within reach, but not the way it sits right now. It'll get there, just not on a stock top mount.

Kraig's GC w/ 3.90 5spd trapped at 106.5mph last year on a 2.0, VF30, 440s, E50 ethanol, and stock top mount. Acceleration tries to bend your head to the backside of the headrest, now. It has 550s, ported exhaust manifold, and a few top mounts to pick from (STI, Ebay, etc.) It has some mild chassis bracing and I don't think it will crinkle the crumple zones. I DO expect the clutch to take a massive poop eventually . If it hits the 114mph speed limiter in the 1/4, then we'll crack the ECU. There's 7mph left to get there, and it only had a vf30, turboback, clutch + flywheel in the first place.

Most of you seem to be spinning stock turbos to oblivion to tickle the 400s with every tuning band-aid you can throw at it. My goal is to do that without band-aids like meth injection and we're almost there. It's only on 18psi, too. It looks like most of you land around 350-375 and really push hard for anything past that.

Thoughts?
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Last edited by HamFist; 02-16-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:34 PM   #2
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mine did it with the stock engine, vF39 on E85. It trap 93 and 94mph on the 1/8 a couple of times.




http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...+official+road #20

With the new engine it made 325whp 375wtq it only has trap a best of 91mph in the 1/8th but 115.5mph in the 1/4. I am looking to get retune soon .
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:45 PM   #3
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with meth and 22 psi you can do fun things like this, but the turbo falls hard.

stock ej257 with vf30, fmic and headers, turbo can only hold 12 psi at redline.....



before meth, at 340 wtq, 300 whp, car trapped 109 in the 1/4.


the wrx transmission has a life of 3 days at 385 wtq, especially when racing. i found this out.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:46 PM   #4
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There's little "common sense" things to do to make it work, IMO. I'm not going to overspin or torture any equipment to prove anything. I want to fix what I think is wrong and go from there. Tuning band-aids like meth injection I think are fixing problems that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Firstly is Subaru's fuel problem--they like a lot of it. A close second is fuel quality. 91 octane sucks. I think most of you with meth injection are seeing a large percentage of gains from the temperature drop and not really energy from the water/meth fluid itself. Dropping those temps is what lets you guys get away with running lot of timing. I got there mostly the same way with better temperature control. E85 is still my #1 poison of choice!

Subie's HATE too much heat. High revs, high intake temps, high combustion chamber temps, or too much backpressure all make too much heat that induces detonation. E85 absorbs lots of heat and doesn't really complain until there's no heat to absorb. I think Subies like colder plugs because of those heat problems in certain instances. I've run into instances where there's not enough heat on alcohol and colder plugs. It's the right direction to go and a good problem to actually have. I'm dealing with and relocating heat in the motor, as kooky as it sounds.

Overpsun stock turbos make a bad heat management problem worse. The subie architecture hates the inlet temps, and so does unleaded pump gas. Enough heat will kill anything. Cool off those temps enough, and even pump gas will perform. IMO, subies are mildly sensitive because of the friction and heat stress from the boxer configuration and their shorter rod-ratio. These are just theories, and working on these kinds of problems and ideas are how I got here.

What happens when I fix the heat problem is how I'm getting decent power out of stock equipped stuff. A lot of that INHERENT heat problem in a subie can be REMEDIED with a more knock resistant fuel. After dealing with the heat problem, I can crank in all the timing I want that is usually unavailable on pump gas. Most of you are doing the exact same thing. Often, just an ECU reset will do that for me with all the stock stuff I use anyway.

Tuning it like a smallblock is how I'm getting good results. Fuel was the #1 problem to remedy, though. I even get killer mileage with lots of low end timing that really uses a Subie's grunt. My little N/A RS can pull itself along in 3rd + 4th gears at idle . I LOVE that not because it's "uber-powerful" but just useable and "kinda" cool . All the power in my RS is off-idle, low, and midrange. I did that with timing and fuel, too.

I've eyeballed how a lot of different folks make torque with oversquare motors. Subies should follow suit to some degree. Torque for them is good fuel and spark timing. So far, it works for me just fine. Cranking up the boost, retarding timing, and cranking in fuel is NOT how I got here. Fix the heat problem and you can make a subaru happy. Fix it's fuel problems and a lot of better opportunities present themselves.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:21 PM   #5
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if you consider pump gas e85, then congrats? not everyone has it available. It pulls a TON of heat from the cylinders (just because meth is not using a "stock" system does not make it any less of a bandaid than running larger injectors and e85). Alot of cars including mine can pull themselves along at idle in 4th and 5th. Its not difficult.

tapering a turbo how it naturally wants to taper, and pushing it high in the midrange is not overspinning the turbo. just because we're over 20 psi does not make it bad. especially in the midrange where the turbo is the most efficient. sadly IHI does not really post any real compressor map info so we're left to guess, but i'm running 17-18 degrees of timing at 22 psi midrange on 70%water/30% meth.

the WRC class cars in their time would run large torque spikes midrange, when the motor has a high VE and turbo is the most efficient, to get around the restrictor.

how far along are you? any numbers? you say your close?

one thing to note, on a 2.0 liter you can run alot more boost in the midrange on a vf turbo and still be alright from an efficiency standpoint. You dont want to push timing so hard your cylinder pressures cause you to spin a bearing.

Last edited by arch4life; 02-16-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:31 AM   #6
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I've got a small pool of turbo + n/a Subarus that have been running my new fuel combinations. They all ran stock equipment and made great torque with no lag. Turbo response is instant because the engine response is instant. The N/As had wide, flat torque curves and miles deep response in the pedal. The turbo motors respond underfoot just like the n/a motors and also have similar flat torque curves. Both my n/a and turbo cars respond and feel like n/a cars. The turbo cars just feel more abundant with the highly responsive torque. Timing was the trick in all of them. Better fuel let that come into play. My angle of attack is to fix efficiency problems instead of "pushing" everything harder.

Everyone's butt dynos agree on the differences we see. We just need hard numbers to confirm everything. I go to the dyno last, not first. Datalogging, sounds, smells, and feel still tell me plenty. My road tunes live, and I understand better why pure dyno tunes die in hard racing. No matter what, a dyno is a different set of conditions...just like any other condition you'd tune peak power for. Conservative tunes live and run consistently. Peak power tunes always need adjustment.

I'm looking to improve little efficiencies and "pad the cushion" for tuning. Some may consider my fuel blends "exotic", but I consider the "fuel problem" fixed . You can't do on pump gas what I can do with an exotic fuel and the same parts. So far, everything makes great power with the greatest of ease. Funny fuel has a LOT to do with it. The idea is to make it live first and run fast second.

Last edited by HamFist; 02-17-2010 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:46 AM   #7
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What are you using to tune the timing with Gary?
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:25 AM   #8
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One car has OpenECU that we're still learning to use. What a pain! The other has a JDM ECU with more aggressive curves. My car has a torque chip, which bumps fuel and timing both. 30adv under boost in Kraig's, and 44adv all day long in my RS. Kraig's was 3mph off of your car with a vf30.

All have just a mild bump in timing and fuel, honestly. There's no "ragged edge" tuning even though I'm using an exotic fuel. I hate ffv tuning and just go for the jugular on ethanol.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:27 AM   #9
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It's not hard to reach 400+wtq with E85 and basic 'stage 2' mods - it's just not avail for all of us (like arch4life said).
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #10
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hamfist, have you heard of romraider? whats all this torque chip and open ecu talk?
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:23 PM   #11
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I made 351wtq with a td04 and no meth. I think the key is making sure the supporting mods are there. Too many people go TBE, Turbo, and IC and call it a day. Go for the pnp of the manifolds, a better than stock catless uppipe, silicone inlet, tgv delete and you should be good.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
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my new fuel
What fuel is this?
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:09 PM   #13
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I run E85 and Oxytane in damn near everything. It performs consistently underfoot and I finally have access to all the datalogging capabilities I need. The dyno couldn't tell me everything and my RS isn't flashable. A larger pool of vehicles was needed. I just NOW have an obd2 logger years later after getting into E85. You boosted guys have been having all the fun, ECUs and all!

In other news we had a good day at the dyno, today. Andrew's 2.5L/2.0 hybrid with a vf39 made 404wtq/320whp. That was on 14psi and conservative timing. I juiced the fuel with Oxytane, but it's hard to see right off the bat sometimes. There was only 10 ft/lbs and 4hp worth of a gain. But the cars always transform on their own. Everyone who uses it raves about "the morning after." Years later it's still a very cool and downright strange transformation to watch every time I do it. I really do enjoy watching people flip out when they see the transformation. BTW, I got video of our shenanigans, but haven't reviewed it to see how well it all came through.

We should see similar numbers from the 2.0L JDM car. Considering the dynojet's 1.21 correction factor, the 2.5L hybrid combo landed right at 400tq at the crank. We were all very pleased. When it gets to 18psi with more timing then we should see about 450tq at the wheels, I think. Getting the fresh built hybrid tuned for lots of datalogging is going to help out a lot. It has 800cc injectors. The JDM car is more straight forward and needs no tuning. It has it's own logger. I now have a logger on loan for my RS, too.

Both of my fuel tweaked VF turbo cars should see 12.0 timeslips this year at 5800ft. elevation. Up here, that's talking a lot of **** for stock parts. I wouldn't have worked this hard if I didn't have something to show for all that hard work. We were floored to hit 400 at the wheels with a conservative tune.

Vids are coming later. Promise. I'll post it even if that transformation doesn't show in the dyno portion of the vid. In-car is still just as cool. this all has that "newness" to me still. I very much feel like a kid in a candy shop .

Cheers!
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by HamFist View Post
\
Most of you seem to be spinning stock turbos to oblivion to tickle the 400s with every tuning band-aid you can throw at it. My goal is to do that without band-aids like meth injection and we're almost there. It's only on 18psi, too. It looks like most of you land around 350-375 and really push hard for anything past that.

Thoughts?
So Oxytane is not a band-aid .

This is the first time I heard of oxytane is very interesting, can u go a little more in detail into what it does and how it works?

TY and
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:40 PM   #15
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why are you so set on this 400tq mark? and why do you think its gonna help the 1/4 mile? you wont even be near it in the powerband.

right now im gonna quietly to myself about the 12.0 at 5800 ft.

the turbo just doesnt have it in it at that elevation......the pressure ratio you need is rediculous and the vf turbos cant do it.

320whp on a dynojet isnt good for 12.0 you're gonna need 360-400whp on a DJ.

at juan's bandaid comment....i was typing something similar.

so what do these guys do after your tune when they dont have any oxytane to throw in the tank?

what was the psi at redline on those vf's?

heres a 400 tq

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1740927

Last edited by Phatron; 02-17-2010 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:32 PM   #16
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I recorded that big block vid . 400 on one atmosphere of boost and conservative timing seemed like a good thing compared against you guy's results.

And yeah, you got me fair and square on the band-aid comment. I'll definitely give you that one .

The argument is just getting started. Wait until I post the video! The gains weren't all that impressive from before and after with 10wtq. But, watching the exhaust note drop a half to whole step is pretty cool. It's additional confirmation outside of the dyno graph. It'll be up around midnight. I juiced the owner's other E85 Forester and it turned into an animal.

Don't forget the prior 106 on E50 with a vf30 up here. We haven't dyno'd this one yet. It couldn't make it today.


I'll soon be swamped in datalogs.

Last edited by HamFist; 02-17-2010 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:40 PM   #17
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I search a little bit and it seems you are the only one using that stuff in the world .
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:24 AM   #18
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why are you so set on this 400tq mark? and why do you think its gonna help the 1/4 mile? you wont even be near it in the powerband.

right now im gonna quietly to myself about the 12.0 at 5800 ft.

the turbo just doesnt have it in it at that elevation......the pressure ratio you need is rediculous and the vf turbos cant do it.

320whp on a dynojet isnt good for 12.0 you're gonna need 360-400whp on a DJ.

at juan's bandaid comment....i was typing something similar.

so what do these guys do after your tune when they dont have any oxytane to throw in the tank?

what was the psi at redline on those vf's?

heres a 400 tq

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1740927
Your joking right? I made 335awhp on IPS Motorsports dyno in columbus ohio on a VF39. I ran a 12.3 and if I would have had my best launch of the day it would have been a 11.9.
Everyone trys to talk about XYZ dyno. In columbus we have a Dynapak a Mustang and a dynojet. the mustang and the dyno jet are DAMN Close with the Dynojet even winning out some times. The dynapak reads super high.
I've also been told the IPS Dyno is the heartbreaker of Dynojets, Who knows.

But I can say for damn certin you don't know 360-400awhp.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I search a little bit and it seems you are the only one using that stuff in the world .
I'm the only one using it with alcohol blends, yes. It is the only "fuel additive" I use because it works so well with exotic alcohol blends and gas.

Speaking of band-aids, fuel additives, cheats, etc...how come no one runs hobby nitro in their meth injection?

Last edited by HamFist; 02-18-2010 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:35 AM   #20
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Can you hear a difference in the two clips? The juiced clip sounds deeper by about a full note. My chromatic tuner appeared to confirm that audible difference. I want to know if you hear it like in the lambo video. That lambo makes more horsepower, but we got him on torque! That's with factory boost settings and a stock trim turbo...

Last edited by HamFist; 02-18-2010 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:08 AM   #21
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Your joking right? I made 335awhp on IPS Motorsports dyno in columbus ohio on a VF39. I ran a 12.3 and if I would have had my best launch of the day it would have been a 11.9.
Everyone trys to talk about XYZ dyno. In columbus we have a Dynapak a Mustang and a dynojet. the mustang and the dyno jet are DAMN Close with the Dynojet even winning out some times. The dynapak reads super high.
I've also been told the IPS Dyno is the heartbreaker of Dynojets, Who knows.

But I can say for damn certin you don't know 360-400awhp.
you're joking right.

so 335 got you 12.3.

how much do you think you need to get an 11? just better driving? you should have done it, but didnt?

how much do you think you need to actually do it? 10 more? 20 more? i'll go with at least 30 whp more.

Last edited by Phatron; 02-18-2010 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:39 AM   #22
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so your dynojet 400 wtq used a correction factor?
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:37 AM   #23
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I'm the only one using it with alcohol blends, yes. It is the only "fuel additive" I use because it works so well with exotic alcohol blends and gas.

Speaking of band-aids, fuel additives, cheats, etc...how come no one runs hobby nitro in their meth injection?
I think 9sec9 try to run nitro---something and blew 3 motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist View Post
YouTube- 404 ft/lbs. E85 + Oxytane in a hybrid WRX

Can you hear a difference in the two clips? The juiced clip sounds deeper by about a full note. My chromatic tuner appeared to confirm that audible difference. I want to know if you hear it like in the lambo video. That lambo makes more horsepower, but we got him on torque! That's with factory boost settings and a stock trim turbo...
I am a little confused. According to that video that car made 318whp and 394wtq at 14psi one pure E85, correct? I will be lucky to get 260whp at 14psi on Airboy.

with E85 and oxytane321whp 404wtq...nice gain. do you have a dynochart comparing the 2 runs?
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:22 AM   #24
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Yes, the dyno used a 1.23 correction factor. Uncorrected I think was 324wtq. We're over a mile above sea level.

I'll scan the dyno sheet soon. The curve looks like any other high torque VF tune. 3500-6500 is very flat.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:09 PM   #25
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you're joking right.

so 335 got you 12.3.

how much do you think you need to get an 11? just better driving? you should have done it, but didnt?

how much do you think you need to actually do it? 10 more? 20 more? i'll go with at least 30 whp more.
All i needed was a 1.6 60' and just 335 got me that.


I did not run a 11 because I kinda enjoy having a running transmission.


Back to topic. Oxytane more info please. I posted about it on a local car board and no one seemed to know jack about it.
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