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Old 09-30-2010, 10:36 PM   #301
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She's coming along nicely. We ended up having to redo quite a few things but the intake looks pretty sweet.

I'm looking forward to the return to the dyno.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:44 PM   #302
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You and all the rest of us
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:17 AM   #303
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where are the ebay turbo guys getting their ts turbine housings??
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Kinugawa-Turb...item41527eac56
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:28 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Good news! I have a source for the VF37 and VF36 turbo outlet flanges so the hardest part it taken car of.

Moore Performance - I'll get some here so we can start on this project post haste.

Here are the big problems that I foresee.
1) DP

We've already proposed the DP and we have a source for the flange which is the hard part.

That leaves the 4th problem. Interest. We need to make sure there's ACTUALLY interest to do this little project.... or else I'm just dreaming again.
Depending on what Moore comes up with for the downpipe and what the latest crack at my frankenstein DP yields, I may be interested.

This is why we really need a good flowing option:
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:39 AM   #305
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It would be nice to have an actual Vendor Twin Scroll Downpipe here in the states. However I just had to get one fabbed up for me...just took a Megan SS Downpipe and had the IA Flange welded on...wasn't cheap, but is better than buying one from overseas and paying way more and then stuck with import fees as well...
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:42 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeLock View Post
Depending on what Moore comes up with for the downpipe and what the latest crack at my frankenstein DP yields, I may be interested.

This is why we really need a good flowing option:
Yep. I had seen that before. The AVO I'm using is a 3".

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayen View Post
It would be nice to have an actual Vendor Twin Scroll Downpipe here in the states. However I just had to get one fabbed up for me...just took a Megan SS Downpipe and had the IA Flange welded on...wasn't cheap, but is better than buying one from overseas and paying way more and then stuck with import fees as well...
I agree. I need to put in a PO for some other parts today so I'll have them send a TS flange so I can send it over to Moore Performance so they can start to look at it.

One thing that I'm going to make clear for everyone is that this is not going to be a cheap downpipe. Don't expect ebay prices. You'll be looking at small runs with something that likely won't fly off the shelves like a normal downpipe.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:47 AM   #307
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^^^ Completely agree with you there TiC. Moore Performance doesn't make junk thats for sure and it may not be cheap. Yet it will be a great product and fill the void for those that would like to go TS without having to worry about how to get a high flowing Downpipe.

Keep up the good work!
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:53 AM   #308
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Ok - here's Clint thinking outside the box again, and perhaps dreaming a bit.

I'm thinking of a kit that is nicely made and upgradable in the future. So, here's what I would like to see.

Good EQ headers
Good TS UP to a stock location turbo
Take the Blouch TS turbo (provided it proves itself well, I expect it will)
Good downpipe

Add the rest of the stuff like injectors, pump, intake, tune just like any normal upgrade path.

Now, lets say you want to upgrade further down the line. Perhaps a bit more power.

In my opinion at that point it's pretty much useless to stay stock location. Seriously, I can't think of any good reasons to do so.

SO!!!

Keep your headers
Get new UP for rotated mount TS
Get TS from Blouch
Get new DP
Get new intake
Sell old stuff on secondary market
Dude who picks up old stuff then just has to get the headers and ancillary bits.

Now, the trick, I know Moore Perf has a TS header already. Have you guys seen it? Here it is:


That kit you see there is actually to an Evo TS turbo. I'm wondering if it can be adapted to this setup. MP - can you chime in?

Am I crazy here?
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:59 AM   #309
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I think since most that pick up a v8 or v9 motor already have the oem header, Moore should make an uppipe that bolts to oem header and that rotated EVO TS turbo.

so the customer buys uppipe, turbo and downpipe and reuses oem TS header.
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:07 AM   #310
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I definitely like the idea of a "kit," gives customers an option to buy modularly or entirely. As you wrote, gotta pay to play, and anyone that takes the plunge on developing this should be rightfully rewarded.

I would say a better alternative to keep costs down would be the GT Spec or Ebay TS header (both come with uppipe), Ebay TS turbo and then the custom TS downpipe. That way, whoever makes the downpipe has a little wiggle room on their end margin.

I am all for brand names and against Ebay junk, but those Taiwanese TS turbos have proven themselves in Australia and in the UK, otherwise you'd have to find a VF37 first and then pay Blouch to upgrade it.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:07 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Now, the trick, I know Moore Perf has a TS header already. Have you guys seen it? Here it is:

That kit you see there is actually to an Evo TS turbo. I'm wondering if it can be adapted to this setup. MP - can you chime in?

Am I crazy here?
It will work, but the purpose of going TS, at least in part, is to help with spool. A manifold with runners meant to clear the 2.0L oil pan works counter to that goal. That's not a header I would want to consider, there would need to be some pretty compelling evidence this design was worth it over the EL manifold designs that "cut the corner" to keep runner lengths shorter.

You potentially open up the 2.0L market with a header like this, but I think that for the most part, the 2.0L market is not going to be interested in GT30+ sized rotated turbos, so the primary market of a rotated TS header is going to be 2.5L customers who have an oil pan that will fit the shorter runner design.

I'm not saying this style header won't work well, but I do think you'll need double the data to convince 'computer racers' that it's worthwhile.

If a suitable header were more available than the stock JDM header, with the flange in the same place, I think that design with multiple uppipes (one for stock location, one for rotated, one for EVO TS) makes more sense. If you do the DP right, then you can have "stubby" mouth designs to incorporate all of those options as well. I don't know the business end though, perhaps that's all pretty cost prohibitive, but the thought is you have a "standard" header and a "standard" 2nd half of the downpipe and you have 3 options for uppipe and mouth designs with the cost varying by material / labor costs.

That would also potentially open up a customer base who already has a stock JDM TS header, which is a solid enough design, who would just want a better DP than the stock twinscroll DP. Or who want to add a rotated setup but don't want to pay for the entire header when the stock TS design is really quite good.

That would have to be in the design from the beginning to work though. The first TS DP would need a flange somewhere in it to swap the "rotated" piece or the "Evo" piece in. This would probably push up the price of a standard DP, which is already going to be somewhat expensive, and that may scare off as many customers as a modular design would bring in.

Last edited by Concillian; 10-01-2010 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:36 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
It will work, but the purpose of going TS, at least in part, is to help with spool. A manifold with runners meant to clear the 2.0L oil pan works counter to that goal. That's not a header I would want to consider, there would need to be some pretty compelling evidence this design was worth it over the EL manifold designs that "cut the corner" to keep runner lengths shorter.

You potentially open up the 2.0L market with a header like this, but I think that for the most part, the 2.0L market is not going to be interested in GT30+ sized rotated turbos, so the primary market of a rotated TS header is going to be 2.5L customers who have an oil pan that will fit the shorter runner design.

I'm not saying this style header won't work well, but I do think you'll need double the data to convince 'computer racers' that it's worthwhile.

If a suitable header were more available than the stock JDM header, with the flange in the same place, I think that design with multiple uppipes (one for stock location, one for rotated, one for EVO TS) makes more sense. If you do the DP right, then you can have "stubby" mouth designs to incorporate all of those options as well. I don't know the business end though, perhaps that's all pretty cost prohibitive, but the thought is you have a "standard" header and a "standard" 2nd half of the downpipe and you have 3 options for uppipe and mouth designs with the cost varying by material / labor costs.

That would also potentially open up a customer base who already has a stock JDM TS header, which is a solid enough design, who would just want a better DP than the stock twinscroll DP. Or who want to add a rotated setup but don't want to pay for the entire header when the stock TS design is really quite good.

That would have to be in the design from the beginning to work though. The first TS DP would need a flange somewhere in it to swap the "rotated" piece or the "Evo" piece in. This would probably push up the price of a standard DP, which is already going to be somewhat expensive, and that may scare off as many customers as a modular design would bring in.
I like where you're going with that.

one of the things that I would like to point out, and that we recommend for any car hitting high lateral forces is to upgrade the oil pan and pickup. If not a pricey aftermarket one then at the very least get an STi pan where it's not so flat on the bottom.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:40 PM   #313
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Definitely some good insights in the post above. Maybe the "base" kit could look something like this:
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) 16/18/20g twin-scroll turbo
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) stainless twin-scroll header
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) stainless twin-scroll uppipe
  • custom twin-scroll downpipe
  • STI/JDM oil pan
The prices are low enough on that Kinugawa stuff that whoever ends up making the dowpipe can still make money even while providing a competitively-priced package. I'm sure the Kando/Kinugawa folks would be more than happy to wholesale.

http://stores.ebay.com.au/kando-dynamic

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Old 10-01-2010, 04:48 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMP View Post
Definitely some good insights in the post above. Maybe the "base" kit could look something like this:
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) 16/18/20g twin-scroll turbo
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) stainless twin-scroll header
  • Kinugawa (Ebay) stainless twin-scroll uppipe
  • custom twin-scroll downpipe
  • STI/JDM oil pan
The prices are low enough on that Kinugawa stuff that whoever ends up making the dowpipe can still make money even while providing a competitively-priced package. I'm sure the Kando/Kinugawa folks would be more than happy to wholesale.

http://stores.ebay.com.au/kando-dynamic

I keep looking at those -

From what I can tell from the pics (and we all know how well that goes with ebay stuff) they look to be a bolt in for a JDM setup.

If that is the case then they would/should work with what we are proposing.
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:07 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I keep looking at those -

From what I can tell from the pics (and we all know how well that goes with ebay stuff) they look to be a bolt in for a JDM setup.

If that is the case then they would/should work with what we are proposing.
That's what I'm saying. As I wrote earlier, I usually scoff at Ebay "performance" junk but these turbos seem to be the real deal at a very attractive price.

The 16/18g goes for about $785.00 USD.
The header goes for about $559.00 USD.

Those are "retail" Ebay prices, so I'm sure wholesale brings the cost down more. Not sure of the current going rate for an STI/JDM oil pan, but it can't be that much. Factor in $300 +/- for the downpipe and I'm thinking this could be done for $2k even.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:26 PM   #316
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When I got my twin scroll set up it came with this down pipe. I do not know who makes it, but here is a pic.

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Old 10-01-2010, 08:32 PM   #317
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^^nice^^ was that usdm length?
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:49 PM   #318
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No that is JDM length. I got the set up from this guy.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/norcal/5...i-lip-etc.html
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:48 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSTI View Post
When I got my twin scroll set up it came with this down pipe. I do not know who makes it, but here is a pic.

That is beautiful, what did you end up paying for it? Guy was asking $2,500 for the complete TBE!

Quote:
w/ After-market 80mm down-pipe with metallic high-flow cat and extra 02 bung + Fujitsubo 80mm Legalis R exhaust - $2500 SOLD
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:52 AM   #320
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What is everybody doing for downpipes?
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:54 AM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Ok - here's Clint thinking outside the box again, and perhaps dreaming a bit.

I'm thinking of a kit that is nicely made and upgradable in the future. So, here's what I would like to see.

Good EQ headers
Good TS UP to a stock location turbo
Take the Blouch TS turbo (provided it proves itself well, I expect it will)
Good downpipe

Add the rest of the stuff like injectors, pump, intake, tune just like any normal upgrade path.

Now, lets say you want to upgrade further down the line. Perhaps a bit more power.

In my opinion at that point it's pretty much useless to stay stock location. Seriously, I can't think of any good reasons to do so.

SO!!!

Keep your headers
Get new UP for rotated mount TS
Get TS from Blouch
Get new DP
Get new intake
Sell old stuff on secondary market
Dude who picks up old stuff then just has to get the headers and ancillary bits.

Now, the trick, I know Moore Perf has a TS header already. Have you guys seen it? Here it is:


That kit you see there is actually to an Evo TS turbo. I'm wondering if it can be adapted to this setup. MP - can you chime in?

Am I crazy here?

You're correct when you talk about our components being upgradeabe as time goes on, and all of our parts from the header to our catbacks are modular in design and can be changed or upgraded at any point. We are working on two 4-2-1 uppipes right now for our existing TS header that will work with a stock location single scroll usdm turbo, but that uppipe can be changed to work with the Evo turbos or maybe even the jdm TS Subaru turbos if we want.

With our Evo turbo kit your are able to pick from any of the factory Evo turbos as well as other upgraded FP, BBK, etc, stock frame units (turbo must be sent to us to flip and repin center section). The turbo I'm currently running is this model: Evo 6.5 RS TME

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...e=Lancer-Turbo

and you can go as big as this turbo: FP Black (68 lb/min)

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...e=Lancer-Turbo

The goal was to provide some options for guys wanting larger TS turbos than Subaru had available, but didn't want to go with a rotated setup, in order to retain their current parts list........

Although, we can also provide custom rotated turbo setups that would use the our current header, a custom uppipe, custom dp and custom intake for your application.

I'm looking forward to working on a dp that will fit the factory framed TS turbos from Subaru in order to give you a high quality, US made option.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:08 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMP View Post
That is beautiful, what did you end up paying for it? Guy was asking $2,500 for the complete TBE!

No he was asking $2,500 for the complet twin scroll set up (header all the way to the tail pipe).
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:32 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
It will work, but the purpose of going TS, at least in part, is to help with spool. A manifold with runners meant to clear the 2.0L oil pan works counter to that goal. That's not a header I would want to consider, there would need to be some pretty compelling evidence this design was worth it over the EL manifold designs that "cut the corner" to keep runner lengths shorter.

You potentially open up the 2.0L market with a header like this, but I think that for the most part, the 2.0L market is not going to be interested in GT30+ sized rotated turbos, so the primary market of a rotated TS header is going to be 2.5L customers who have an oil pan that will fit the shorter runner design.

I'm not saying this style header won't work well, but I do think you'll need double the data to convince 'computer racers' that it's worthwhile.

If a suitable header were more available than the stock JDM header, with the flange in the same place, I think that design with multiple uppipes (one for stock location, one for rotated, one for EVO TS) makes more sense. If you do the DP right, then you can have "stubby" mouth designs to incorporate all of those options as well. I don't know the business end though, perhaps that's all pretty cost prohibitive, but the thought is you have a "standard" header and a "standard" 2nd half of the downpipe and you have 3 options for uppipe and mouth designs with the cost varying by material / labor costs.

That would also potentially open up a customer base who already has a stock JDM TS header, which is a solid enough design, who would just want a better DP than the stock twinscroll DP. Or who want to add a rotated setup but don't want to pay for the entire header when the stock TS design is really quite good.

That would have to be in the design from the beginning to work though. The first TS DP would need a flange somewhere in it to swap the "rotated" piece or the "Evo" piece in. This would probably push up the price of a standard DP, which is already going to be somewhat expensive, and that may scare off as many customers as a modular design would bring in.
A lot of good points in your post, and the main reason we created our header the way we did (to work with a 2.0 pan) was more about letting customers choose the pan they wanted to run on either the ej20 or ej25 and less about opening up to a specific market..... The flip side to that, is the ability for 2.0 guys to run some nice turbo options without having to purchase a second oil pan, pickup, etc. Another reason for our design was the fact that we talked with some Time Attack and road race teams running ej25's, and we found out that some of them use an ej20 oil pan for additional oil capacity. We wanted a versatile TS header that would work with any engine/pan combo and from our research no company had this available.

The idea about building removeable/replaceable uppipe and dp sections to work with Subaru and Evo TS turbos based off of the factory style JDM Subaru TS header is a good idea and definitely an option! It takes time and money to create these items, but anything is possible!

From the sounds of it, starting off the main focus will be creating a dp to work with the vf36/vf37 framed turbos. After that project is complete we can then look into branching out to create other unique parts and pieces if it looks like that will be something you guys will want.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:59 AM   #324
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I have a flange for you guys to play with on the way. Once we're ready I'll talk to them about the flanges in qty.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:28 PM   #325
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Excellent!
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