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Old 02-23-2010, 01:27 AM   #1
USCTrojan4JC
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Default Inside Line: 1998 Acura Integra Type R vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

Inside Line pitted a 1998 ITR against a 2010 Civic Si. Click the hyperlink below for more.

http://www.insideline.com/features/1...-civic-si.html

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Last edited by USCTrojan4JC; 02-23-2010 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Clarification that our site is not selling anything in *any* way.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:38 AM   #2
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Entertaining read.

It would be interesting to see a similar test done with a GC STi and a GR STi.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:50 AM   #3
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no more integra, no more prelude, no more nsx, no more s2000, no more soul. the civic si is honda's last bit of vtec fury that is upstaged by a 12 year old car that was actually engineered over 15 years ago. the bloat is in the entire automotive world, but no one is feeling it more than torque free revving vtecs...hence the disappearing acts.
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:35 AM   #4
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Interesting read but the SI is no Type R, there is Type R Civic out and it would have been nice to see that tested. Even if it doesn't come to the states.
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:40 AM   #5
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To this day I still do not understand why Honda never brought the Civic Type R to the states. Hell they even have two versions of it right now, but they are too scared to give the US public what they really want...



And please don't tell me it's bumper regulation, because Candada has had the Acura CSX for some time now which uses the same body style as the Japanese Civic Type R.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:33 AM   #6
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type Rs are sweeeeeeeet, even if they are FWD...

damn safety regulations!!
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by darknightohio View Post
To this day I still do not understand why Honda never brought the Civic Type R to the states.
Nor do I, only I personally think it should've been an RSX Type-R. They canceled the ITR just as the WRX came to town....... and Honda's seat atop the sport-compact market was ripped from them, never to return. I understand that, aside from the S2000 and the rare NSX, they were trying to focus more on their mainstream cars. You've got to do that. But... it was always rather sad.

I owned a '94 Integra RS coupe in Milano Red, before I bought my 2.5RS in 2000. It was a base model, so no Vtec. But it was a fun, solid car, and of course as a hatchback, it had oodles of storage space. I very seriously considered getting an ITR, but passed on it since I wanted something totally different. That thing was king of the hill back then, though, that's for sure.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:01 AM   #8
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Perhaps they do not bring it because it would cost way north of 33000 dollars, and at that price it has to compete with the the likes of the EVO's and STI's of the world.. which is just plain cannot do.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by USCTrojan4JC View Post
Inside Line pitted a 1998 ITR against a 2010 Civic Si. Click the hyperlink below for more.

http://www.insideline.com/features/1...-civic-si.html

Please refrain from copying and pasting the entire article in this thread. Your traffic helps keep our little company in business. Thank you!

So you're saying you're a vendor? Does Nick know that?

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It's a time capsule Inside Line could drive and test. A perfectly preserved 1998 Acura Integra Type R with just 5,400 miles showing on its odometer and new car smell still wafting through its interior. Recently disinterred from somewhere deep in the climate-controlled bowels of American Honda's Torrance, California, headquarters, it's undamaged, unmodified, unmolested and almost flawless. And it's quite likely the nicest Integra Type R left on Earth.


We beat the snot out of it.

By now, virtually all its brother Type Rs have been ruined with stupid modifications, stolen, salvaged and ruined again. But this one is hermetically sealed-in-a-mayonnaise-jar-underneath-Funk-&-Wagnalls-front-porch awesome. Except for the fresh oil in the Type R crankcase, it's pure 1998.

It was an Acura service-training vehicle and, until Acura decided to sell it earlier this year, it was never titled. When it was made available to American Honda employees for purchase, more than 100 of them signed up for the privilege of buying it. Gary Robinson, an old friend and the new head of Acura Public Relations, won the lottery. And then he made the mistake of mentioning his purchase to us over lunch.

Heck, we'd have settled for a whip around the block. But he let us test it and put a couple hundred miles on its barely used odo. And for some contemporary context, we also borrowed a 2010 Honda Civic Si coupe equipped with Honda's "FP" Factory Performance parts.

The Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.
This isn't a comparison test in the traditional sense simply because comparing a new car to one that's more than a decade old is just plain stupid, but comparisons are inevitable.

All of us who drove an Integra Type R back then (it made it to America in the 1997 model year) still remember it as the best-handling front-drive car ever built. But memories are fuzzy, fungible things created in the crucible of their moments.

The questions are: Has the Type R's moment passed? And just how far has Honda small car performance come since Bill Clinton was smoking cigars in the Oval Office?

We decided to find out.

One Change, Just One
For safety's sake, Inside Line ordered up a new set of tires for the Type R before testing. The car's spooky preservation meant the original Bridgestone Potenza RE010 were still wrapped around the white wheels. That's fine for museum display, but 12-year-old tires dry out and one of our goals was to survive the test.


Unfortunately, Bridgestone doesn't offer the RE010 in the Type R's dinky 195/55R15 size anymore, so Tire Rack recommended the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec as the closest substitute. Like the RE010, Tire Rack classifies the Z1 Star Spec as an "Extreme Performance Summer" tire and it's both the highest rated tire of its type by Tire Rack customers and the best seller in its category. We asked Tire Rack to shave 3/32nds of tread off the new Dunlops to simulate the break-in miles that we couldn't put on them.

That Tire Rack was able to not only shave the tires but get them to us in just two days is dang near a miracle of logistics.

Old School Done Right
By 21st-century standards, the Integra Type R is hopelessly archaic. Forget the dinky, body-color wheels. Look at how thin those A-pillars are no airbags in there. That cowl barely comes up to your knees, the steering wheel has dorky horn buttons on its spokes, the radio head unit is pure Pep Boys and the slider-based ventilation controls would look at home in a '48 Ford.

But there are plenty of elements to the Integra design that made us nostalgic. The instrumentation is all in one single, easily scanned pod directly in front of the driver, the front seats mold well to any body, the shifter is perfectly positioned and feels directly connected to the five-speed transmission, and that low cowl means lots of greenhouse glass for better visibility. Yeah, the tall deck spoiler knocks out a bunch of rearward vision, but the Integra otherwise remains a paragon of ergonomic virtue.


And with the Civic Si parked next to it, the Integra looks absolutely tiny. The Integra's 172.4-inch overall length, 101.3-inch wheelbase and 51.9-inch height are all 3.1 inches shorter than the Civic coupe's dimensions. At 66.7 inches wide, it's 2.2 inches slimmer than the Honda. On Inside Line's scales, the Type R weighed in at a svelte 2,598 pounds 270 pounds less than the Civic Si.

So the Civic Si is a full NFL defensive end say, Jared Allen of the Vikings heavier than the Integra.

Hard-Core Hardware
It had been almost nine years since anyone at Inside Line had driven a stock Integra Type R, but once inside it was love again at first sit. There never have been many cars as closely tailored as the Integra Type R and there are fewer of them now than there were then. Compared to today's thickly insulated tubs, getting into an old Integra is almost like swinging your leg over a motorcycle or mounting a horse. You feel somehow exposed, as if the doors weren't there at all.

Turn the key and it's a real bare key and the Type R's hand-massaged 1.8-liter B18C5 engine rocks to life. Sound deadening had been stripped from the Type R to cut weight, and sometimes the engine sounds like it's revving in your lap. Rated at 195 horsepower, it's down a mere two ponies from the 2.0-liter K-series power plant in the Civic Si. And it makes that 195 hp at a wailing 8,000 rpm 400 rpm short of its redline. This car is unquiet in the best possible way.


Getting to that 8,400 means tipping into the accelerator pedal, and that means reliving the sensation of a real mechanical throttle cable. This isn't a pedal hooked up to a rheostat that's sending a signal to some computer, but rather a thick steel cord that works against a spring on a throttle body. It's an honest difference you feel in your big toe. And it's a sensation we all miss.

More Hard-Core Hardware
There's never been a better front-drive shifter than the Integra Type R's and it's just as good as we had remembered it. The gates are distinct, the effort is light and the shifter movement is instinctive. You mold your hand to the shifter so you can feel all the mechanical bits whirring away in the engine bay through it.

This thing might have a license plate on it, but it has the personality of racecar. And its direct mechanical connection with the driver is made even more special by the abundance of electronically disconnected machines sold today.

The Type R's engine produces virtually no low-end torque. And even at its 7,500 rpm torque peak, it's only making 130 pound-feet of twist. It wasn't built to go drag racing. It was made for the driver who knows how to keep an engine boiling while squirting from corner to corner.


By any measure, the Civic Si's bigger, 197-hp engine is more civilized and better composed than the Type R's. Its idle is less raucous, it builds engine speed with less vibration and it's much quieter at its 8,000-rpm redline than the Type R is at its redline. What they have in common is that distinct moment when the VTEC variable valve timing system kicks in and engine speed gets frantic. Despite the Si's great exhaust note, its engine simply doesn't invite the involvement the Type R's does.

Hard-Core Driving
The Type R's steering is taut and the front tires feel sutured to the pavement. Some of this is due to the double-wishbone front suspension that was once every Honda's most distinctive engineering feature. More of it is due to the lightweight wheels and tires and mechanical power steering.

The Civic Si's steering ratio, at 13.62:1, is actually quicker than the Type R's 16.1:1 rack-and-pinion, but it's numbed by the electric power steering system to which it's attached and the heavy 18-inch wheels this car was wearing. It's nonetheless very good. It just pales in comparison to the old Type R.

In fact, on the slalom course the Civic Si bit into the pavement with better initial turn-in than the Type R. That's likely a function of its slightly wider (215/40ZR18) Dunlop SP Sport tires and quicker steering. Both cars have a helical limited-slip differential working for them through the corners. But the Type R's chassis offers more feedback and much better manners.


The Civic Si is fast through the slalom at 69.7 mph with the stability control turned off. The old Integra Type R, however, is absolutely scalding. With no stability control to turn off, it blasted through the slalom at a stunning 71.8 mph. That's just a little bit better than the last Porsche Boxster S we tested and it's more than 3 mph faster than a 2010 Camaro SS. Some exotics and the Corvette ZR1 will beat it through the slalom, but not much else.

More Hard-Core Driving
Throw in 0.92g of stick on the skid pad (the Civic Si only managed 0.88g) and the Type R rises to the very top rank of performance cars. This is the best-handling front-drive car Inside Line has ever tested it just happens to be 12 years old.

The Integra also outstopped the Civic, despite its tiny 15-inch wheels and tires and much smaller 9.5-inch-diameter front brake rotors (the Civic's measure 11.8 inches). The Type R stopped in an astonishingly short 110 feet from 60 mph; that's 14 feet shorter than the Honda could manage.

The Type R kicked its ass at the drag strip, too. The Integra's 6.8-second 0-60-mph clocking and 14.9 seconds at 95.2 mph quarter-mile performance also handily beat the Civic Si's 7.5-second 0-60 time and 15.4 seconds at 92.5 mph bests. That's almost all due to the extra weight the Civic is lugging around.

Yes, the Integra Type R will buzz annoyingly on the freeway. Naturally the suspension is balanced more for performance than comfort. Of course the Civic Si is an easier car to live with every day in virtually every way. But the Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.


The Acura of Acuras
There's simply nothing in the current Acura lineup that comes close to being as mechanically engaging as the Integra Type R (or the late, great NSX, for that matter). All-wheel drive, silken V6 engines and computer controls are still poor substitutes for a perfectly tuned chassis, a spellbinding engine and a direct connection between driver and car. When the Integra Type R was new, it was the embodiment of everything we all hoped Acura would be.

If Acura ever decides to go searching for its soul, it's downstairs in Gary Robinson's parking spot.
You're sending people to links to generate revenue and/or business (you said yourself specifically). For that, you need to be a NASIOC registered vendor.

I'd love to be able to do this to promote my websites, but I'm not a vendor here. Please understand this isn't a personal attack on your company, but a statement that what you're doing is against the NASIOC TOS that many have been banned for.

--kC
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:15 AM   #10
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I owned a 95 GS-R for almost five years as a daily driver, and I could not agree more with this article and the comments posted on the site. New cars are almost isolated in feel. I am also glad someone else besides me dislikes electronic throttles; the only car I have driven that comes close to a direct feel with that type of throttle is the 06+ Elise.

If I could find a similar ITR that is bone stock with low miles, it would be hard to pass it up...
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
So you're saying you're a vendor? Does Nick know that?

You're sending people to links to generate revenue and/or business (you said yourself specifically). For that, you need to be a NASIOC registered vendor.

I'd love to be able to do this to promote my websites, but I'm not a vendor here. Please understand this isn't a personal attack on your company, but a statement that what you're doing is against the NASIOC TOS that many have been banned for.

--kC


We are not a vendor in any way. We don't sell any products on or through our site. We rely on web traffic to keep the bills paid.

Have you even looked at our sites?

Thanks for understanding. Have a nice day.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:49 AM   #12
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Add weight, lose your soul....Weight is the devil...
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristar Racing View Post
I owned a 95 GS-R for almost five years as a daily driver, and I could not agree more with this article and the comments posted on the site. New cars are almost isolated in feel. I am also glad someone else besides me dislikes electronic throttles; the only car I have driven that comes close to a direct feel with that type of throttle is the 06+ Elise.

If I could find a similar ITR that is bone stock with low miles, it would be hard to pass it up...
I know not why people have such a problem with electronic throttles. My gas pedal in my 07 sti feels very connected with the engine, granted it is tuned. But, in the bmws and minis I drive everyday, they feel great! Plus it really cleans up the engine compartment. No cables in the way, no extra stuff for cruise control or traction control...
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:10 AM   #14
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Most new cars all seem to feel like I'm sitting in a deep hole; even the dashboards are high up, along with a windshield rake so steep it's like looking through a slit.

My 05 feels positively airy by comparison.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:16 AM   #15
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I want another Integra.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Add weight, lose your soul....Weight is the devil...
So you add lightness, right?
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:30 AM   #17
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Great Read. There truly has been something lost in the auto world.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:32 AM   #18
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Wow, I'm just suprised that they got their hands on a prestine 5400 mile Type-R.

One thing I do miss is drive-by-cable. Drive-by-wire will never give you that sense of connectablitly.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:03 PM   #19
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And sadly, Honda went ahead and sold a piece of its soul to an employee! I wonder how many generations of NSX are lurking in the catacombs of mystery that once engineered some of the best cars one could get hands on. Honda was once about simplicity, purity, evolution in terms of form follows function and efficiency. Now, the purity has been raped, evolution is in the form the the typical burger eating fat ass that is America that WAS once the proud athlete that now only has stories and past pictures of glory to justify the pride they feel, but no longer practice. Someone get me a tissue please.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:24 PM   #20
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Unhappy American's don't 'drive' anymore, they 'ride'

Makes me want to keep my 1989 civic 3 door hatch till I die.

Quote:
thin those A-pillars
Quote:
cowl barely comes up to your knees
Quote:
shifter is perfectly positioned and feels directly connected to the five-speed transmission
Quote:
Type R weighed in at a svelte 2,598 pounds 270 pounds less than the Civic Si.
Quote:
Turn the key and it's a real bare key
Quote:
This isn't a pedal hooked up to a rheostat that's sending a signal to some computer, but rather a thick steel cord that works against a spring on a throttle body
Quote:
You mold your hand to the shifter so you can feel all the mechanical bits whirring away in the engine bay through it.
Quote:
its direct mechanical connection with the driver is made even more special by the abundance of electronically disconnected machines sold today
Quote:
The Civic Si's steering ratio, at 13.62:1, is actually quicker than the Type R's 16.1:1 rack-and-pinion, but it's numbed by the electric power steering system to which it's attached and the heavy 18-inch wheels this car was wearing
Quote:
Both cars have a helical limited-slip differential working for them through the corners. But the Type R's chassis offers more feedback and much better manners.
Quote:
computer controls are still poor substitutes for a perfectly tuned chassis, a spellbinding engine and a direct connection between driver and car.
Quote:
If Acura ever decides to go searching for its soul, it's downstairs in Gary Robinson's parking spot.
We don't 'drive' anymore we 'ride' in our cars.
A car doesn't have to make 300+ hp to be quick, unless you put so many bells and whistles on it that the car weighs in at 4000+ lbs. How many modern car computers will honestly let a driver fully use those 300+ hp? Are you sure?
I hope automakers start swinging back to the 'k.i.s.s.' theorem soon and stop pandering to the lowest common denominator.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #21
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I :heart: the Integra Type R's. One of the only fwd cars I'd ever consider buying.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:03 PM   #22
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The article was awesome, and really brought me back to the old days of driving an ITR when they were still new. It reminds me of the days when it was possible to have a 2500 lb daily driven hatch. Outside of the modern day Lotus cars, lightweight just isn't possible anymore.

Long live the ITR.


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Thanks for understanding. Have a nice day.
PS: Don't focus on that slob or his desire to be an authority figure. We liked it.


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Old 02-23-2010, 01:48 PM   #23
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Interesting read, but the thing that bothers me about this comparo is the tires.

The Dunlop Z1 SS is an amazing tire (I will be putting them on every daily driver I own until they stop making them) which brings into question how good the car is vs how good the tire makes it. Frankly you could put a set on a dump truck and it would make you smile in the corners.

I wish they had at least put a set on the Si as well, would be interesting to see how much it improved it's slalom and brakeing times.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:12 PM   #24
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Locking this while we make a decision here.

While it is not selling anything, you are using the hits to generate revenue.

Last edited by Hondaslayer; 02-23-2010 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:50 PM   #25
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It's so interesting to see a 12 year old car outperform a brand new 'performance' car. Definitely says something...
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