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Old 02-24-2010, 08:35 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default 911 could be as extinct in America





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When we reported a few days ago that Porsche would have serious trouble complying with the upcoming CAFE rules, and that the existence of Porsches on American roads may be in danger after 2016, the majority of the commentariat exploded: “Unbelievable!”

Most would not believe that an aptly named 911 could be as extinct in America as the Brown Bear in the Netherlands, or as endangered as the South China Tiger in South China. The invectives thrown our way ranged from “lazy” to “Drudge-like.” Devout believers in capitalism expressed their trust that loaded owners of said vehicles would simply not allow such a law to come into effect, the arsenal of democracy be damned.

Gentlepersons, I hate to bring this to you, but Porsche, the company that makes said vehicles, doesn’t share your trust that all is well and that there are no grounds to be alarmed.
A spokesperson of Porsche confirmed the report that had first appeared in Financial Times (a rather un-gearheaded publication, which would usually be suspect of wishing pox and pestilence upon Porsche for separating FT’s hedgefund-owning readership from their hard-earned money.)

“We are approaching the problem on a political and a technical level” said a Porsche spokesperson to Das Autohaus. Politically, Porsche is trying to get an extension of the special dispensation they already have. That depends on the whims and mercy of the administrators in the U.S.A.
If they fail to get the exemption, Porsche “would need to reach an average fleet consumption of 41.4 mpg,” writes das Autohaus. Porsche will move heaven and hell to get there, including a hybrid slot car, says the Porsche mouthpiece. But the pinnacle of Austro-German engineering doubts that they ever will get there all the way.

Even if heaven and hell are being successfully dislocated, Porsche thinks that at best they “may fulfill the new norms by 80, maybe 90 percent,” when 2016 comes around. Close enough for government work, but not good enough for a foreign import.

If Porsche won’t clear the awfully high hurdle without tripping, penalties of up to $37,500 per car will be due. We repeat: Per car. The MSRP of a basic Boxster would climb from $47,600 to $85,100 – that’s more than a base 911 sets you back these days. The government has no compunction to collect, as the Cummins case confirms. Cummins was fined $2.1m for failure to come up with proper documentation that 405 of their diesels were fitted with the proscribed emission-control systems.

Germany’s Focus Magazine explains: “The new law says that size determines the allowable mileage of a car. A car with a bigger footprint has wider parameters than a small car. This rule favors US manufacturers, who are heavy on pick-ups. Porsche is hit hard. A sports car manufacturer has to contend with an unfavorable relationship between size and consumption.”

Germany’s Börsen-Zeitung: “In the worst case, this could be the end of Porsche in the U.S. – Porsche hopes they can avoid the worst.”

Still think it can’t be true? Don’t complain here. Ask Porsche. Or write to your congressman. If you think foreign sports cars are the work of the antichrist, then continue claiming that all is well. It’s a free country after all. But it will be an awfully expensive country for Porschephiles.

PS: Even Autopsies headlines: “Are The Feds Plotting To Take Away Your Sports Car?” But it turns out, they simply purloined the story from us. “Completely IRRELEVENT!” protests their reader cdoke.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/obama-will-take-away-your-porsche-take-two/
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:08 AM   #2
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Volkswagen's TDI engines...use them.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:10 AM   #3
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I'd think the Cayenne would be in the greatest danger of disappearing. And would be the least missed amongst Porsche purists...

One solution, make Porsche truly a brand under Volkswagen, so they can ride VW's CAFE numbers.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:43 AM   #4
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I'd think the Cayenne would be in the greatest danger of disappearing. And would be the least missed amongst Porsche purists...
Trouble is, the Cayenne is such a cash cow for Porsche that I doubt they'd part ways with it. They should at least drop the Touareg's TDI in there.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:53 AM   #5
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Volkswagen's TDI engines...use them.
And you're worried about the cayanne watering down Porsche? I think it's bull**** and would be sad to see a great manufacturer be forced out of the US, but I don't think they should bend over backwards for this stupid CAFE crap.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:54 AM   #6
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In europe the cayenne already is offered with a diesel. The CAFE standards are going to be a very hard thing to do for many companies.


The only porsche I could ever see anyone buying is the Cayenne. I highly doubt there is a market for a SLOW diesel 911. People buy 911's for a reason and its not just for looks.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:18 AM   #7
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Volkswagen's TDI engines...use them.
Better yet develop a Flat 6 boxer TDI motor. The torque would be awesome
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:41 AM   #8
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I highly doubt there is a market for a SLOW diesel 911. People buy 911's for a reason and its not just for looks.
ehhh. . .
I am willing to bet ~ 80% of 911s are bought for a good looking GT car for DD status and will never be brought near a track.

Case-in-point; my fiancee is looking at a Boxster for a dd. She never plans to race it, track it, mod it; she doesn't even care what wheels it comes with. But she likes it in black.
She wants a fun car, that looks good, gets decent mpg, and is a good DD.

Nick
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:55 AM   #9
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how many times has Porsche pulled a car from the US because of different regulations, only to re-introduce it again a few years later?

the answer is plenty of times.

besides, the 911 hasn't been a fresh design since 1970.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:47 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by samagon View Post
how many times has Porsche pulled a car from the US because of different regulations, only to re-introduce it again a few years later?

the answer is plenty of times.

besides, the 911 hasn't been a fresh design since 1970.
Something, something broke, don't try to fix it?
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:20 PM   #11
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i would rather see Porsche vanish than to exist in a limp state. If CAFE kills it, then it should be left to die here in the states. Write your congressman. If outrage exists then it will change the BS. As long as the whack-o's are allowed to keep making stupid baseless laws, then we deserve what we get. IF you do not like it, VOTE>
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:57 PM   #12
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Reminder: The new CAFE rules were developed under the previous administration (though approved by the current one).
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by samagon View Post
how many times has Porsche pulled a car from the US because of different regulations, only to re-introduce it again a few years later?

the answer is plenty of times.

besides, the 911 hasn't been a fresh design since 1970.
I thought it was fully redesigned in 1998 when they intro'd the watercooled engine

And didn't the Germans already get an emissions pass? I don't see why Toyota, Ford and GM have to meet one set of standards while the Germans get an excuse for the others. If anything, the free-marketers should be outraged that the bigger car manufacturers are getting punished more (who sell above 400k units per annum) compared to the smaller ones.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...issions-Rules/
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Eyeflyistheeye View Post
I thought it was fully redesigned in 1998 when they intro'd the watercooled engine
yeah, they've updated it plenty, just like the jeep cj, err, yj, errr tj, errr jk, but it doesn't make it less of an outdated design.

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Originally Posted by Eyeflyistheeye View Post
And didn't the Germans already get an emissions pass? I don't see why Toyota, Ford and GM have to meet one set of standards while the Germans get an excuse for the others. If anything, the free-marketers should be outraged that the bigger car manufacturers are getting punished more (who sell above 400k units per annum) compared to the smaller ones.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...issions-Rules/
from the article:

Quote:
The exemption lasts only four years, and applies to just one-quarter of the fleet of each company.
hardly worth even mentioning, they get a 4 year lag time on 1/4 of their fleet.

also, Subaru will be placed in that list.

If you want to argue about things being unequal, argue about vehicles classed as trucks being held to different emissions standards than cars. I say 'vehicles classed as trucks' because there are what anyone would consider passenger cars that are listed as trucks, even including some Subaru models.

Manufacturers do this simply to skirt the stringent car emissions regulations and get into the more lax truck class.

an easy fix, and one that makes sense, would be to get rid of different classifications for emissions, if your vehicle is going to be sold and used on a road, it has to meet these standards.

Last edited by samagon; 02-24-2010 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:01 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Chromer View Post
I'd think the Cayenne would be in the greatest danger of disappearing. And would be the least missed amongst Porsche purists...

One solution, make Porsche truly a brand under Volkswagen, so they can ride VW's CAFE numbers.
I don't think VW could absorb it. They will already do that with Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti (although Audi could be made to ballance itself pretty easily and Bugatti is like 10 total cars).
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:09 PM   #16
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2 words to solve this problem -

KIT CAR

split the car in 2 import to the us as a kit car and put it together
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:39 PM   #17
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besides, the 911 hasn't been a fresh design since 1970.
Ummm, 996 was a clean sheet design for the water-cooled engines. shares NO parts with 993 before it.

And why should they mess with what works for them?

How many times has Subaru tried a new design, and had it fall on it's ugly face? PLENTY of times.


And a diesel, with a red line of 4000-4500 RPMs is going to make for a really fun sporting car... sure. NOT.

Diesels are good engines. They are fuel efficient, and torquey. They would be GREAT for a small truck, or an economy car, or a series hybrid, to generate electricity.

But a diesel driving the wheels in a sports car... no thanks. No revs, and no flexibility.

It is like using a hammer to drive a screw. Not the right tool for the job.
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Ummm, 996 was a clean sheet design for the water-cooled engines. shares NO parts with 993 before it.

And why should they mess with what works for them?

How many times has Subaru tried a new design, and had it fall on it's ugly face? PLENTY of times.


And a diesel, with a red line of 4000-4500 RPMs is going to make for a really fun sporting car... sure. NOT.

Diesels are good engines. They are fuel efficient, and torquey. They would be GREAT for a small truck, or an economy car, or a series hybrid, to generate electricity.

But a diesel driving the wheels in a sports car... no thanks. No revs, and no flexibility.

It is like using a hammer to drive a screw. Not the right tool for the job.
what's interesting is that when the 911 debuted, they also had a 912 that debuted next to it, which was a 4cyl like the 356, because porsche thought there was a market for something less than a full on sporting 6cyl engine.

believe it or not, but they sold more 912 models in the first years of production.

anyway, an optional diesel engine would help their cafe number drastically, and not impact their performance market
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
i would rather see Porsche vanish than to exist in a limp state. If CAFE kills it, then it should be left to die here in the states. Write your congressman. If outrage exists then it will change the BS. As long as the whack-o's are allowed to keep making stupid baseless laws, then we deserve what we get. IF you do not like it, VOTE>
+1

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Originally Posted by Chromer View Post
Reminder: The new CAFE rules were developed under the previous administration (though approved by the current one).
Doesn't matter under who or when it was developed. If you don't like it you should speak out against it.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:01 PM   #20
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Volkswagen's TDI engines...use them.
I stand by my previous comment, but I should elaborate. The Cayenne is in desperate need of the TDI, it makes the most sense there. There should never be a TDI in a 911, however.

I did just recently read that Lotus revealed specs on their new hybrid Evora, something like 400HP and 600TQ from a combo of electric motors and a 1.3 liter gas engine (it's only function to provide power to the electric engines). It has a range of @300 miles in ideal situations I'm sure.

On top of those impressive numbers, while the car only has 1 forward speed, Lotus has engineered a paddle shifter that will simulate shifting through 7 gears so you can still 'downshift' to slow the car down, or keep the car in a certain 'gear' to maintain speed...etc.

More info (myself and nobody I know makes money if you click the link):
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/24/g...a-414e-hybrid/

This is what Porsche needs to do, and I'm sure they are alread at work on it.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:01 PM   #21
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The CAFE rules are stupid anyways. Since vehicles classified as trucks do not need to meet as high as cars they will probably be cheaper to make and cost less to the consumer. So when the consumer whats into a dealer and see's an SUV for a price not much more than cars but with the benifit of being larger and more practical, what do you think they are going to choose?
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:05 PM   #22
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the market was for a cheaper car, not a car with less performance...people do not want less performance, but they do like cheap.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:08 PM   #23
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The CAFE rules are stupid anyways. Since vehicles classified as trucks do not need to meet as high as cars they will probably be cheaper to make and cost less to the consumer. So when the consumer whats into a dealer and see's an SUV for a price not much more than cars but with the benifit of being larger and more practical, what do you think they are going to choose?
IB911isclassifiedasatruck

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the market was for a cheaper car, not a car with less performance...people do not want less performance, but they do like cheap.
right, and if a diesel variant of the 911 were to be produced with less performance, it had better be cheaper.

but, what we all seem to be glossing over is that the cafe standards are for the entire product range, the 911 doesn't have to change, but if they had the boxter with better mileage ratings, it would be the cheap and crappy porsche it has always been, but it would be able to keep the 911 here as what we expect it to be.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:09 PM   #24
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But a diesel driving the wheels in a sports car... no thanks. No revs, and no flexibility.
Maybe you forgot...

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Old 02-24-2010, 04:39 PM   #25
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ehhh. . .
I am willing to bet ~ 80% of 911s are bought for a good looking GT car for DD status and will never be brought near a track.

Case-in-point; my fiancee is looking at a Boxster for a dd. She never plans to race it, track it, mod it; she doesn't even care what wheels it comes with. But she likes it in black.
She wants a fun car, that looks good, gets decent mpg, and is a good DD.

Nick
I would fall under that other 20% category...however, your 80% assumption is probably generous. Same could be said about AM, Lambo, Ferrari, Corvette owners as well.
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