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Old 02-26-2010, 07:54 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Front crash sensors may be defective, but Chrysler won't recall.


NHTSA makes a tough and controversial decision.



Quote:
Chrysler is conducting what it deems is a “safety improvement campaign” – and not a safety recall – covering model year 2005-2006 Dodge Caravan, Grand Caravan, and Chrysler Town & Country Vehicles. More than 312,000 minivans in 27 states are affected –thus far.

A memo from the National Highway Traffic Safety Commission said it does not agree with Chrysler’s plan, but also says, “in the interest of remedying the affected vehicles expeditiously and to avoid a protracted dispute, Chrysler is implementing steps to replace the front crash sensors.”
In other words, Chrysler refuses to conduct a formal safety recall. Moreover, NHTSA is making a judgment call that allows some of the sensors to be replaced instead of all of them.

This service action controversy comes after NHTSA Administrator Ray LaHood faced two days of tough questioning at Congressional hearings over the safety agency’s actions – or lack of actions – in Toyota unintended acceleration or sticky accelerator pedal defects that are allegedly responsible for as many as 34 deaths. Critics contend that NHTSA closed investigations prematurely, or limited their scope, thereby missing early warnings of Toyota safety defects.

Front airbag sensors or a control module may be defective in hundreds of thousands of minivans. The front crash sensors in question may crack under “environmental conditions” where road salt is in common use, and allow water to enter the sensor. This can cause the sensor to become inoperative and illuminate the airbag warning light. These sensors were added to enhance the performance of the airbag system in certain frontal crashes and are not required to comply with the law, according to a Chrysler memo to the NHTSA.

In the Chrysler minivan defect, if a front crash sensors fails the driver is alerted by the illumination of the “airbag warning light.” Chrysler says that the van should be promptly serviced. Until the Dodge or Chrysler minivan so affected is repaired, the airbags may not work.

NHTSA has decided that “further use of its resources” does not appear to be warranted. NHTSA is therefore closing the investigation.

“The closing of this investigation does not constitute a finding by NHTSA that no safety-related defect exists in the subject vehicles,” NHTSA said. The agency “will monitor the issue and reserves the right to take further action if warranted by the circumstances.”

This is a geographically limited service campaign for vehicles originally sold in or currently registered in the states of Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Alaska, and the District of Columbia.
Critics, of course, maintain that such campaigns, while limiting the cost to the automaker, do not get to all the potentially defective vehicles.

About 185,000 of model years 2005-2006 minivans are not included in the recall – even though these vehicles use the same crash sensors and were built at the same time. Chrysler told NHTSA that they experience “significantly lower failure rates” because of reduced road salt exposure.

Chrysler will replace the front airbag sensors with a new design. This service will be performed free of charge. The safety “improvement campaign” will begin during June 2010. Owners may contact Chrysler at 1-800-853-1403.

Chrysler’s campaign number is J38. NHTSA campaign number: 10V008000. NHTSA action number: RQ09003
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:47 AM   #2
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Ah yes, the advantages of being an American based company. Toyota gets crucified, while Dodge says they are only going to replace some of the possible bad sensors, not all of them, due to "significantly lower failure rates"

Yup, that is fair.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:38 AM   #3
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Ah the advantages of being an American company. Subaru does not repairing the leaking fuel lines... wait a minute its exactly the same.

Having a bad sensor is not the same as unintended acceleration problems at all.

It requires that a sensor fail, a warning light be ignored, a crash occurs, and the importance of an airbag changes based on whether the individual has a seat belt on. It is not in the same class as your brakes suddenly without warning failing. There is a warning. It is possible that some unlucky person has a sensor fail and then crash in the next few seconds, but if we want to go down that rabbit hole there are all sorts of other ridiculous things that could be posited.

It is one of those things owners should be pissed about and insist the Chrysler (how much an American company they are is arguable) fixes the problem.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:45 AM   #4
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wow thats ridiculous, all these big companies with their recalls. Subaru is still doing good!!!
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:55 AM   #5
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The difference between this and Toyota is; Toyota doesn't stop, Chrysler van lets you know that the sensor is broken.
Buy a new sensor and the van is fine. It's a 4-5 year old vehicle, that sucks. Do people really believe that nothing will break on them?

Nick
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06njsti View Post
wow thats ridiculous, all these big companies with their recalls. Subaru is still doing good!!!
I'll gladly take my squeaky rattletrap over a deathtrap any day.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:15 PM   #7
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A failure is a failure guys... an electrical glitch is a glitch. It is just bad luck it was on an accelerator pedal, and not a window controller.. It could have been anything. If reliability is key on your must have list, then you would be a fool not to buy a Toyota. If anything, their cars will come out of this better.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:22 PM   #8
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These vans are still on the road!?!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
... If reliability is key on your must have list...
^ Ironically that is the very reason why I will not replace my WRX with another one, as much as I love the thing.
My next car needs to give me 10 years / 200,000 miles without drama.

(that's also the reason why I won't replace it with a GTI or GLI as much as I like those too)
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
A failure is a failure guys... an electrical glitch is a glitch. It is just bad luck it was on an accelerator pedal, and not a window controller.. It could have been anything. If reliability is key on your must have list, then you would be a fool not to buy a Toyota. If anything, their cars will come out of this better.
And safety recalls have nothing whatsoever to do with this. If toyota had broken window switches (which the old 4runner rear window did have btw) there would not be a Toyoda bowing and saying sorry in front of law makers. Surely you realize that. The only reason this is even brought up is b/c it has to do with a "crash" sensor. You see that? If you have a problem with safety equipment, or lighting on fire, or not stopping, or accelerating uncontrollably then your company will end up in worse trouble than if your CV boots fail constantly, or you transmission sucks.

And no not really. Do you have a Toyota? I drive one regularly. Their build quality has seriously deteriorated. And I don't mean b/c of their workers. The interiors are far worse quality than they used to be. I have driven Toyotas from the late 70s through 2009 and their quality was best in the 90s IMO. Even the old toyota I had from the 80s had initial interior quality that surpasses some of their new models (at least in the way the interior is put together). They are trying to save money and cut corners like everyone else. The key is to find the point at which you save the most as a company without pissing off your customers b/c everything is falling apart and rattling. They have overshot in my opinion.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
Ah the advantages of being an American company. Subaru does not repairing the leaking fuel lines... wait a minute its exactly the same.

Having a bad sensor is not the same as unintended acceleration problems at all.

It requires that a sensor fail, a warning light be ignored, a crash occurs, and the importance of an airbag changes based on whether the individual has a seat belt on. It is not in the same class as your brakes suddenly without warning failing. There is a warning. It is possible that some unlucky person has a sensor fail and then crash in the next few seconds, but if we want to go down that rabbit hole there are all sorts of other ridiculous things that could be posited.

It is one of those things owners should be pissed about and insist the Chrysler (how much an American company they are is arguable) fixes the problem.
this man speaks the truth.


personally, i hope toyota crashes and burns
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:46 PM   #11
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The only reason Mr. Toyoda is there is because he was asked to be there by a congress that wants to make a competitor to GM (obama motors) look bad.

THERE I SAID IT!!!

Let that stew a while...
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawn boy View Post
this man speaks the truth.


personally, i hope toyota crashes and burns
They wont, they will learn from this and make better product. I do not hope any company crashes and burns. If they crash, we will have to bail them out too.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:08 PM   #13
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Exactly, I know for a fact that the governors of states that have Toyota plants have been holding meetings with Toyota execs. Not to scold them, but to beg them not to take too many jobs from their states. Once the pony shows over, people will be counting how this whole debacle will affect the local unemployment numbers.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
The only reason Mr. Toyoda is there is because he was asked to be there by a congress that wants to make a competitor to GM (obama motors) look bad.
yup.
When the NHTSA and GM are owned by the same management group, something has to give.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:36 PM   #15
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Nope the Japanese government will bail them out Scrappy. The Japanese government already has started. It seems strange to hear you say you do not hope any company crashes and burns for it certainly seems to me I have heard you say the opposite about GM.

There is no stewing needed. If Obama Motors was a reality as you think Ray LaHood would not have sat on the Toyota safety issues like a mother hen. It took months and months for anything to get done.

If you have not realize this yet let me summarize the way congress works.

People raise lots of money and promise a bunch of BS.
People get elected
Lawmakers have meetings with lobbyists
Lawmakers try not to do anything b/c it might make somebody somewhere upset
Lawmakers talk alot
Something bad happens
Lawmakerse hold hearings and explain how righteously indignant they are about whatever happened.
Executives wring their hands and say sorry, but...
Lawmakers shake their fingers
Everyone forgets about it when the next thing comes up
Lawmakers raise more money and get re-elected
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:42 PM   #16
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I have said on many occasions that I want GM to Die in a Fire, and I will never buy a car from them until they are back to private industry. I also said that if they cannot get their crap together, then they deserve to fail... I cannot stand them for sucking so bad we had to bail them out. It would be great for them to be so successful they can get independent again. But who are we fooling.

That is my official position and stand by it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawn boy View Post
this man speaks the truth.


personally, i hope toyota crashes and burns
Considering that Toyota has a plant in WV, I'd think you would think otherwise. It is good for our economy to have a place for WVU engineering students to hopefully work one day, ya know.
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
They wont, they will learn from this and make better product. I do not hope any company crashes and burns. If they crash, we will have to bail them out too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I have said on many occasions that I want GM to Die in a Fire, and I will never buy a car from them until they are back to private industry. I also said that if they cannot get their crap together, then they deserve to fail... I cannot stand them for sucking so bad we had to bail them out. It would be great for them to be so successful they can get independent again. But who are we fooling.

That is my official position and stand by it.
So your official position is you want to to die in a fire, but not crash and burn. I take it they have some sort of fire proof suit but die of asphyxiation? Or is there some more complicated inner workings?
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Old 02-27-2010, 04:38 PM   #19
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I tend to think that a problem is a problem really. Only difference here, as mentioned above, is that on one situation, the car allegedly accelerates (you can avoid crashing by slipping the transmission into Neutral), while on another situation, a sensor, which I'm guessing is tied into whether or not the supplemental safety restraint systems work as intended (in which case, you can take the car into the dealership to have the problem taken care of) in order to ensure that everything works properly in the event of a crash.

The existence of both issues are potentially life and death issues.

I don't think anything will come of it unless accidents start happening where there airbags and seatbelt pretensioners fail to operate, causing loss of life.

In such an occasion, hearings will be held, trying to figure out why a recall was not implemented, and so on.

The funny thing about all of this is that when you look at more mundane household objects such as baby strollers and cribs, even the slightest possibility of something occurring that could harm a child while in use is grounds for an immediate recall.

Victory for Chrysler i think... I wonder how much they saved by convincing the NHTSA that a recall was not necessary?

Last edited by jigga; 02-27-2010 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
So your official position is you want to to die in a fire, but not crash and burn. I take it they have some sort of fire proof suit but die of asphyxiation? Or is there some more complicated inner workings?
Yeah, more complicated inner workings. is more likely. I do not like GM...Now that they are the welfare company, I almost hate them.

I want them to get out from under the government umbrella, so in that case I want them to succeed. But until then they can Die in a Fire.

I hope that clears it up..
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:19 PM   #21
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According to Jim Press, the Prius' development was funded completely by the Japanese government, and the Japanese government also gave Toyota as well as Honda a low-interest "loan" back in 2009 for billions of yen. Not to mention that the only reason Hyundai was able to rebound and make decent vehicles was that the Korean government put a heavy tariff on imported vehicles.

What was funny too was that investigations into the Toyota pedal incident started under the administration of George W. Bush and mysteriously ended when Toyota hired someone from NHTSA.

And isn't it cute that some want GM to fail after they took the loan instead of having them do well and pay it back. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face

But why let facts get in the way of misguided anger?
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Old 02-27-2010, 07:37 PM   #22
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From what I understand the Japanese government gave Toyota a loan that said if the prius failed they did not have to pay it back. So they did pay to develop it, but Toyota paid them back. In other words there was no risk.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:05 PM   #23
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if the prius failed they did not have to pay it back
No risk to Toyota, but a big risk to the Japanese gov't/taxpayers.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:19 AM   #24
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Yar that was my point. It isn't quite the same as paying for it though. They just took on the risk.
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