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Old 09-22-2011, 05:08 PM   #1451
maxpowr
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when we took mine apart we saw that my rings were already rounded.

it became apparent that drop in pistons into sleeves that are bored different diameters from the factory needs to be addressed.

the case is marked on top with...

AAAA
BBBB
ABAB
ABBB
BBBA

and so on...i am not sure why subaru does this but the A bore and the B bore are different sizes. i am also not positive, but think the difference can be stone ball honed to compensate the difference for stock bore drop in pistons without going to 99.75.

my engine builder also suggested that a rough ball hone cross hatching may be uneven and too aggressive for aftermarket rings, causing premature wear.

this is why using a used block can be a bad idea. not only that but the line bore can be distorted from excessive heat and abuse.

im gonna use a used block, but i am also gonna to have the clearances measured precisely before committing to it.
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:28 PM   #1452
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^I'd highly recommend using a torque plate when you have it honed... I measured .0014" out of round in one of my cylinders between piston pin direction and thrust direction.

You can borrow mine w/a head gasket if needed.
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:42 PM   #1453
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i think im gonna get a motor made of titanium billet
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:06 PM   #1454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
when we took mine apart we saw that my rings were already rounded.

it became apparent that drop in pistons into sleeves that are bored different diameters from the factory needs to be addressed.

the case is marked on top with...

AAAA
BBBB
ABAB
ABBB
BBBA

and so on...i am not sure why subaru does this but the A bore and the B bore are different sizes. i am also not positive, but think the difference can be stone ball honed to compensate the difference for stock bore drop in pistons without going to 99.75.

my engine builder also suggested that a rough ball hone cross hatching may be uneven and too aggressive for aftermarket rings, causing premature wear.

this is why using a used block can be a bad idea. not only that but the line bore can be distorted from excessive heat and abuse.

im gonna use a used block, but i am also gonna to have the clearances measured precisely before committing to it.
So if your theory that using used blocks is bad because of the distortion that may develop from the heat and abuse what does a new block give you if its going to be subject to the same heat and abuse and probably change dimension just as you say?

I'm a believer in using used blocks because they have already been heat cycled and if something were to change it would have already by the first rebuild. If you rebuild it right and line bore the mains(or at least check them), deck the heads, and bore and hone the cylinder to the specification the piston or ring manufacturer recommends I feel an advantage using a used block as long as you know its history.

There is a size difference of the bores between A and B but if you hone to fit your pistons like you should it doesn't mean squat.

Most engine builders I've dealt with and the instructions I got from Wiseco said not to use a ball hone but a rigid or brush type diamond hone with a specific grit for your application.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:26 PM   #1455
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i hear ya brother. i am not an engine builder nor an expert. just thinking out loud and sharing what i hear from people in my travels...

what you say makes sense and is logical.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:45 PM   #1456
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I am no engine builder, but from what i've gathered, this is also some opinion in here.

get a used block(now that it's been heat cycled, it's not going to shift much unless you stress it with much different temps or climate that it's not been accustomed to). Bore/hone for your pistons, less is more; you want as much cylinder wall AS POSSIBLE(with torque plate and the proper studs you will be using), align hone(obviously if needed, but you should break everything down anyway imo), proper break in with boosting after a couple hundred miles, while doing a immediate oil change after first idle and revs, and profit? oh yah, new oil pump always...

I PERSONALLY think that the tuners and what not/race teams are keeping motors alive longer because while using the 2.5 liter engine, they use larger turbo chargers. We(primarily the public) are knocking in the lower rpm ranges with smaller and very torquey smaller turbos. Torque is what kills stuff, when you are making your peak toruqe later in the powerband(with a larger turbocharger) it's out of the knockhappy 3-500rpm powerband that is common with the 2.5 liter engines.

Seems like the guys using stock valves/cams and just properly SIMPLY FSM built shortblocks with forged pistons are running the most miles.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:52 PM   #1457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
I am no engine builder, but from what i've gathered, this is also some opinion in here.

get a used block(now that it's been heat cycled, it's not going to shift much unless you stress it with much different temps or climate that it's not been accustomed to). Bore/hone for your pistons, less is more; you want as much cylinder wall AS POSSIBLE(with torque plate and the proper studs you will be using), align hone(obviously if needed, but you should break everything down anyway imo), proper break in with boosting after a couple hundred miles, while doing a immediate oil change after first idle and revs, and profit? oh yah, new oil pump always...

I PERSONALLY think that the tuners and what not/race teams are keeping motors alive longer because while using the 2.5 liter engine, they use larger turbo chargers. We(primarily the public) are knocking in the lower rpm ranges with smaller and very torquey smaller turbos. Torque is what kills stuff, when you are making your peak toruqe later in the powerband(with a larger turbocharger) it's out of the knockhappy 3-500rpm powerband that is common with the 2.5 liter engines.

Seems like the guys using stock valves/cams and just properly SIMPLY FSM built shortblocks with forged pistons are running the most miles.


I hope to be 130mph+ with one of these simple short block motors soon Carmi

I'm verrrrry torn right now, not sure what to do. The shoot out is in 3-4 weeks (wrx vs evo).

My car weighs ~2700 and Im going back to the t60 and c16. I kinda want a new project, and have her up for sale.

I listed it as heavily tracked, stolen, crashed, but in great condition exterior and gutted interior.

I thought it was a laughing manner but I have multiple buyers right now. I only listed it for 13500. I had one of my friends approach me today and smack me in the chest with a mountain of hundreds..... But I just couldnt had over the keys.

GT-R in the near future, or keep going with the 07. While the GTR is an amazing platform, many of the owners in the area say they are bored inside of 10,000 miles.

Hmmmm.


-Mikey
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:00 AM   #1458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
I hope to be 130mph+ with one of these simple short block motors soon Carmi

I'm verrrrry torn right now, not sure what to do. The shoot out is in 3-4 weeks (wrx vs evo).

My car weighs ~2700 and Im going back to the t60 and c16. I kinda want a new project, and have her up for sale.

I listed it as heavily tracked, stolen, crashed, but in great condition exterior and gutted interior.

I thought it was a laughing manner but I have multiple buyers right now. I only listed it for 13500. I had one of my friends approach me today and smack me in the chest with a mountain of hundreds..... But I just couldnt had over the keys.

GT-R in the near future, or keep going with the 07. While the GTR is an amazing platform, many of the owners in the area say they are bored inside of 10,000 miles.

Hmmmm.


-Mikey

sounds like you aren't asking very much money for your car, compared to some other cars...

Idk how much fun a gtr sounds like without serious $$$...there are many pro's and con's in that dept.

sounds like you are torn about your car choices, good luck buddy. I am seeing how much fun some of these 2.5rs guys are having with not much buy in and how well figured out that gc8 suspension is(gst motorsports proving that) it's kind of what i'm thinking of doing.

BUT..you might just be happier keeping your car mate..might just waste a lof of time and money getting back to what you had.
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:17 AM   #1459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
I am no engine builder, but from what i've gathered, this is also some opinion in here.

get a used block(now that it's been heat cycled, it's not going to shift much unless you stress it with much different temps or climate that it's not been accustomed to). Bore/hone for your pistons, less is more; you want as much cylinder wall AS POSSIBLE(with torque plate and the proper studs you will be using), align hone(obviously if needed, but you should break everything down anyway imo), proper break in with boosting after a couple hundred miles, while doing a immediate oil change after first idle and revs, and profit? oh yah, new oil pump always...

I PERSONALLY think that the tuners and what not/race teams are keeping motors alive longer because while using the 2.5 liter engine, they use larger turbo chargers. We(primarily the public) are knocking in the lower rpm ranges with smaller and very torquey smaller turbos. Torque is what kills stuff, when you are making your peak toruqe later in the powerband(with a larger turbocharger) it's out of the knockhappy 3-500rpm powerband that is common with the 2.5 liter engines.

Seems like the guys using stock valves/cams and just properly SIMPLY FSM built shortblocks with forged pistons are running the most miles.
I agree with Carmi. RPM and high timing down low with huge torque and some knock kills the rods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
I hope to be 130mph+ with one of these simple short block motors soon Carmi

I'm verrrrry torn right now, not sure what to do. The shoot out is in 3-4 weeks (wrx vs evo).

My car weighs ~2700 and Im going back to the t60 and c16. I kinda want a new project, and have her up for sale.

I listed it as heavily tracked, stolen, crashed, but in great condition exterior and gutted interior.

I thought it was a laughing manner but I have multiple buyers right now. I only listed it for 13500. I had one of my friends approach me today and smack me in the chest with a mountain of hundreds..... But I just couldnt had over the keys.

GT-R in the near future, or keep going with the 07. While the GTR is an amazing platform, many of the owners in the area say they are bored inside of 10,000 miles.

Hmmmm.


-Mikey
Lol Mikey thats cheap I was asking 14K for mine with a blown engine and I got 12.5K offers but I have decided to fix it.

Why not keep it as your race car?
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:39 PM   #1460
maxpowr
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manley H beam

14024-4 Subaru WRX EJ205/STi EJ257
center to big end big end pin pin gram
center bore width diameter bore weight

5.137" 2.165" .840" .905" ( 23 mm ) .9063" 53

Manufactured from 4340 forgings
Heat treated, stress relieved, shot peened and 100% individually magnafluxed
Weight matched sets + 1.5 grams
Cap fasteners are 3/8" ARP 2000 for the”H” Beam and 3/8" ARP Custom Age 625+ for the H-Plus,
Horsepower range for these rods in a 4 cylinder application is 600+ for the “H”-Beam and 800+ and for the “H”-beam plus

manley I beam

14416-4 Subaru WRX EJ205/STi EJ257
center to big end big end pin pin gram
center bore width diameter bore weight

5.141" 2.165" .840" .9055" (23 mm) .9063" 61

Forged from 4340
aircraft quality vacuum degaussed material
shot peened after machining to Mil specs and 100% individually magnafluxed
specifically designed to handle high horsepower applications when using turbos and or nitrous
cap fasteners are 3/8th arp 2000 cap screws
horsepower range for these rods is 1,000+ hp

Last edited by maxpowr; 09-24-2011 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:57 PM   #1461
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so the h beams are like 400$ and the I beams are like 700$.

according to the rating the h is like 600crank and the h beam plus id like 800crank.

the I beam rating is 1000crank plus.

my goal at most is 500whp because i feel much over that is pushing everything involved.

the I beam seems dramatically overrated for my build.

the h beam plus are in stock. the I beams are back ordered till mid october.

its not really a matter of urgency because either way i wont be ready for the shoot out.

my valve job that was "performed" by fonse needs to actually be done this time, which will probably mean new buckets...and more delays.

not to mention i don't expect d&f to drop what they are doing to get my ish rebuilt. not sure about the turn around time on blueprinting my shortblock.

new rings from rallispec on the way...my ringset was shot after 5000 miles. maybe the ball hone didnt cut it?

the cylinders will be measured and cut to fit my standard bore low compression cosworth pistons with new ringset.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:58 PM   #1462
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What's the price difference between them?

Edit- Ok $300, I'd get the I for peace of mind probably.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:00 PM   #1463
maxpowr
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:12 PM   #1464
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thats my dilemma...

peace of mind?

h plus is rated to 800crank. i only plan on running 500whp or 600crank. thats pretty good piece of mind there.

I beam is rated at 1000+crank...which is almost double my goal. and just about double the cost.

and truth be told, no rod, no matter how expensive survives bad tune. i know some of the best tuners in the country...

i dont want to sound like i need to be talked into one rod or the other...its just funny to me that 99% of you guys are like just go overkill.

my engine builder thinks I beams are way overkill.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:13 PM   #1465
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:19 PM   #1466
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I think the H beams are Chinese steel and machined in the us.

The I beams are US steel and machined in house at Manley.

I've seen Chinese rods just randomly break for no reason.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:28 PM   #1467
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US steel vs CHINESE steel...interesting.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:28 PM   #1468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
I hope to be 130mph+ with one of these simple short block motors soon Carmi

I'm verrrrry torn right now, not sure what to do. The shoot out is in 3-4 weeks (wrx vs evo).

My car weighs ~2700 and Im going back to the t60 and c16. I kinda want a new project, and have her up for sale.

I listed it as heavily tracked, stolen, crashed, but in great condition exterior and gutted interior.

I thought it was a laughing manner but I have multiple buyers right now. I only listed it for 13500. I had one of my friends approach me today and smack me in the chest with a mountain of hundreds..... But I just couldnt had over the keys.

GT-R in the near future, or keep going with the 07. While the GTR is an amazing platform, many of the owners in the area say they are bored inside of 10,000 miles.

Hmmmm.


-Mikey
I am in the same boat as you Mikey, a GTR will defiantly be my next vehicle purchase. Not sure if there will be a house getting bought before or after buying the Nissan though lol. I dont plan on selling the STi either, ill have both of my Japanese rice burners tucked away in the same garage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
Thats how I am running my oil pressure gauge...however i bought mine from a vendor on nasioc when i bought my defi's instead of ebay. its a very basic and simple design so wouldnt think its hard to screw up making something like that.

-Gary
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:32 PM   #1469
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the oem oil cooler cost...???

i can put my oil pressure gauge up top...i just dont wanna use the oil cooler over. can you link here the oil cooler your using?

the machine shop and i are gonna take my 12mm oil pump apart and inspect it under a microscope before deciding if its junk or not.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:38 PM   #1470
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You can just delete the factory cooler. It doesn't really do anything and the newer cars don't have one.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:39 PM   #1471
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^what i said.
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:53 PM   #1472
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karl, you said run a radiator type of oil cooler...which sounds pricey.

360...run no cooler at all? if so how would i go about mounting the oil filter?

seems kinda silly that the coolant lines for the cooler run right above the header...
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Old 09-24-2011, 02:54 PM   #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
the oem oil cooler cost...???

i can put my oil pressure gauge up top...i just dont wanna use the oil cooler over. can you link here the oil cooler your using?

the machine shop and i are gonna take my 12mm oil pump apart and inspect it under a microscope before deciding if its junk or not.
list is 270, it would cost you 215 after tax and we have them in stock. Personally I replaced my stock oil cooler after the 2nd motor exploded, I reused my oil cooler on the first motor that spun a bearing and reused the oil pump on both engines.

If I leave subaru im gonna try to convince karl to let me use his garage when we finish up my fuel system this winter and also put an oil cooler in my car . I need to mock up a few different size oil coolers to see how big of a core I can fit on an angle in the open scoop Ive got on my bumper. VAC stocks 3 different size core's 11x11, 11x8 and 11x5...all 3 sizes being 3 inches thick. I plan on buying the sandwich adapter, -an line and -an fittings all separate to make a custom oil cooler setup. Ive got the carbon fiber clock off plate on my passenger side opening and im trying to mount the oil cooler core on the drivers size scoop
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Old 09-24-2011, 03:00 PM   #1474
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your car is so boss. i hope i can afford it if you ever sell.
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Old 09-24-2011, 03:04 PM   #1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
karl, you said run a radiator type of oil cooler...which sounds pricey.

360...run no cooler at all? if so how would i go about mounting the oil filter?

seems kinda silly that the coolant lines for the cooler run right above the header...
You just get the fitting that goes in the block for an engine without cooler. I have some kicking around if you need one.

That factory cooler is more like a heater, it doesn't do a thing. They eliminated it on the newer models.

All the spun bearing engines I fix, I throw the cooler in the trash and delete it.
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