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Old 03-01-2010, 04:13 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default JLR develops gas turbine tech




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Jaguar Land Rover is co-developing a micro gas turbine to charge batteries in hybrid cars on the move.
The system is called the Ultra Lightweight Range Extender (ULRE), and is being worked on by a consortium of companies with government backing.



The axial-flow gas turbine engine has been developed by Isle of Man-based company Bladon Jets, and is coupled to a high-speed generator using technology developed by UK firm SR Drives.


Jaguar Land Rover is overseeing the coupling of this application of the system to road car technology.
Axail-flow technology enables the production of highly efficient, small gas turbine engines that are ideally suited for use in hybrid electric vehicles
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/247785/






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Old 03-01-2010, 08:37 AM   #2
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Bring it!
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:45 AM   #3
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Watch out for birds in the intake!
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:11 PM   #4
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I have long thought that turbine electrical generation, with only enough capacitance on board to allow short distance use and start/stop technology was the way to go.

A turboshaft engine with bypass air mixing in the exhaust air for exhaust temperature control... A high speed generator/starter combination, perhaps even inline with the power unit...

It minimizes battery weight, eliminates external electrical charging infrastructure, and continues to use the best, most dense energy source, petrochemicals of various sources, to generate power. Fill up at a fuel station just like you do now... not waiting for hours and hours for a high voltage, high amperage, hazardous electrical charge into almost 1000lbs of battery weight for a mere 100-200 mile range.

A completely de-coupled power generation system from liquid fuel to electricity, that feeds an electric drivetrain of 4 brushless motors, paired back-to-back, two per axle.

AWD with no differentials, and no central driveshaft. Independent location of power generation hardware for ideal weight distribution, since mechanical link between the energy production device and the road wheels is not required.

Independent wheel speed and torque vectoring controls. Regenerative braking, and integrated friction braking inboard, for lighter unsprung weight.

Forced air cooling, or forced air to liquid intercooling, using turbine bypass airflow.

The possibilities are amazing, and well beyond just sticking an electric assist motor and some batteries into an otherwise traditional car, and calling it a hybrid.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I have long thought that turbine electrical generation, with only enough capacitance on board to allow short distance use and start/stop technology was the way to go.

A turboshaft engine with bypass air mixing in the exhaust air for exhaust temperature control... A high speed generator/starter combination, perhaps even inline with the power unit...

It minimizes battery weight, eliminates external electrical charging infrastructure, and continues to use the best, most dense energy source, petrochemicals of various sources, to generate power. Fill up at a fuel station just like you do now... not waiting for hours and hours for a high voltage, high amperage, hazardous electrical charge into almost 1000lbs of battery weight for a mere 100-200 mile range.

A completely de-coupled power generation system from liquid fuel to electricity, that feeds an electric drivetrain of 4 brushless motors, paired back-to-back, two per axle.

AWD with no differentials, and no central driveshaft. Independent location of power generation hardware for ideal weight distribution, since mechanical link between the energy production device and the road wheels is not required.

Independent wheel speed and torque vectoring controls. Regenerative braking, and integrated friction braking inboard, for lighter unsprung weight.

Forced air cooling, or forced air to liquid intercooling, using turbine bypass airflow.

The possibilities are amazing, and well beyond just sticking an electric assist motor and some batteries into an otherwise traditional car, and calling it a hybrid.
You paid attention in Thermo didn't you?
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:23 PM   #6
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Mostly paid attention in college physics and aced chem, but that was a while ago now.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:31 PM   #7
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Amen, brother.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:42 PM   #8
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I think they are only considering this tech for range extending applications. Though turbine engines are more efficient than piston based engines, they are not good for start/stop applications (batteryless systems). I think the goal would be a battery based motor system and have the turbine be able to generation more electricity to recharge the batteries between charges a la Chevy Volt. This might require different fuels because, IIRC, turbine engines don't work well with gasoline or diesel while will be more difficult than finding an outlet.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:56 PM   #9
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I thought that turbines could run on diesel, an a wide range of other fuels, and was more flexible about that than a piston engine, although it probably would venture more toward kerosene normally. But diesel turbines do exist for more industrial purposes.

What I was suggesting above, wouldn't be completely battery-less... just a minimum of batteries. Batteries are heavy, and potentially dangerous. Minimizing them should be a goal.

Moving a car a short distance would be electric only, and not require the turbine to engage.

I would think that a small turbine, on the scale of a car, would be easier to start and stop... and that capability would be desireable, considering the idle RPM speed and fuel consumption. One would not want to sit and idle the turbine and use fuel if the batteries are already charged, and the car isn't moving... but conversely wouldn't want to stop and re-start at every stop-light, either... not really the same useage profile as start-stop in a gasoline piston engine.

Actually, this just dropped on Autoblog... another step toward...
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/01/g...th-wankel-rot/
The A1 based e-tron, 31 miles of electric range, until a wankel rotary engine powered 15kWh powers the electric drive system. I would drop that electric range further, probably less than half that, and substitute the turbine in this article for the wankel. Although I do respect wankel engines, and might be interesting in that application. they still burn oil, though, and the rev-flexibility is somewhat lost on a steady-state generator useage, but the rotational stability and smoothness is probably pretty good.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 03-01-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:56 PM   #10
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Small turbines have historically been less efficient than reciprocating engines. Conversely, large turbines are more efficient than recips. Think about it - if it was cost effective why wouldn't locomotives and long haul truckers have gas turbines powering electric motors? That is not to say micro turbines can't become more efficient or to diminish their potential, it's just to say that this is not a new idea and smart folks have been working on it for a long time.

btw, it is true that turbines can run on all sorts of fuel, but as a practical matter emissions requirements would likely limit their use in vehicles to natural gas.
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Old 03-01-2010, 02:03 PM   #11
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I've been dreaming of this day ever since my first co-op where I first heard of microturbines. Common applications for them are the auxiliary power units on jet aircraft. Stick a small turbine out back, hook it up to an electrical generator and go. Big problem is crash worthiness, hell of a lot of energy stored in the spinning rotors, they're known to be lethal through layers of steel up to pretty great distances.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
Small turbines have historically been less efficient than reciprocating engines. Conversely, large turbines are more efficient than recips. Think about it - if it was cost effective why wouldn't locomotives and long haul truckers have gas turbines powering electric motors? That is not to say micro turbines can't become more efficient or to diminish their potential, it's just to say that this is not a new idea and smart folks have been working on it for a long time.

btw, it is true that turbines can run on all sorts of fuel, but as a practical matter emissions requirements would likely limit their use in vehicles to natural gas.
They did have gas turbine locomotives. They produced around 8500 horsepower. The biggest issue was the fuel type they burned and the fact that they were so ****ing loud.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:00 PM   #13
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They did have gas turbine locomotives. They produced around 8500 horsepower. The biggest issue was the fuel type they burned and the fact that they were so ****ing loud.
And that they used more fuel per mile ton of freight.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:11 PM   #14
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Although not a hybrid it reminds me of the Toyota GTV.

Jet powered cars!
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Old 04-07-2010, 06:24 PM   #15
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this has been done with a working volvo concept vehicle years ago.



i saw it at the auto show along time ago.


small turbine runs generator


nothing new here
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:29 PM   #16
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Great idea!

I'm surprised that this hasn't been done with diesel. A friend of mine has a diesel powered jet engine.

Nick
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:11 AM   #17
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Why not just drop an APU from a passenger jet into a car? Same thing, more or less.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by KidCorporate View Post
Why not just drop an APU from a passenger jet into a car? Same thing, more or less.
Nothing to say that they aren't using that hardware and just calling the APU a generator, and just setting it up as a turboshaft to send all of the useable output of the engine to the APU/generator. (mechanical drive output, rather than a turbojet that produces exhaust-derived thrust.)

An APU isn't the main driving purpose of an aircraft engine, but more of a driven accessory, like a car's alternator, to generate the vehicle's on-board power.

In essence, the engineering would be almost done in reverse. An APU/Generator sized to provide the current and voltage for the onboard electric drive system, and on-board demand, with a margin for reliability and not being driven to 100% duty cycle all the time...

Then the turbine designed to be appropriately sized to generate the kinetic energy to drive that generator appropriately, but not be too excessive, heavy or thirsty.

A systematic approach to then appropriate enough on-board electrical storage to have enough to move the car around a modest distance without having to start and stop the turbine for every little thing, but also enough current to use the generator as a starter motor, to fire up the turbine to provide power to both charge, and motivate the vehicle, not just one or the other.

Allowing the car to sit or drive short distances on electric only power would help the fuel consumption issues with turbines. Turbines are least efficient when drinking fuel at idle. Even idle requires a healthy amount of fuel to just sustain engine RPMs. If the engine isn't being used, it drastically hurts average fuel efficiency, more than an idled piston engine at a much lower minimum rpm. The turbine gains efficiency when being used, by not shedding inertia while it is actually being effective at doing something. Piston engines shed ineria with every change in piston direction. An aircraft gets advantage from a near constant useage cycle, with little idle running time. Locomotives have more idle time, and cars are even more flexible on and off of idle speed even more often.

A city car series hybrid probably can't justify a turbine engine, not for duty cycle, nor space consideration and a diesel piston, or other stratified-burn ICE would be a better choice for a power plant. A long distance touring car with the proper programming for turbine start and stop to minimize trivial use or idle time, could probably benefit from a turbine's efficiency while at cruising speed.

The only other two big turbine-in-a-car issue tends to be exhaust heat and preventing debris intake. Using bypass air to intermix and cool the exhaust through a diffusing and sound-muffling exhaust system might help, too. Most turbine cars have had some issues with managing exhaust heat from a turbine engine, and turbines aren't known for being silent wafting engines.

A similarly diffusive and sound-managed intake system that intakes a large volume of air through a large array of air filters, without vacuuming up everything not bolted down would be good, too.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 04-08-2010 at 12:52 AM.
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