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Old 03-08-2010, 08:11 PM   #1
Masterauto
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:46 PM   #2
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This is so retarded. An electronic solution to an electronic problem.

How about a simple foolproof mechanical ignition cut?

Wait.....! Ignition key is such!

Instead of the software controll push button, they could put mechanical rotary switch that would simulate (and operate) like a traditional key, but would give you keyless start feature. Would be familiar to people unaccustomed to push button starts and play exactly same role with much more intuitive and foolproof interface. But the biggest problem with it is the marketing idiots could not tout it as "button" feature.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:23 PM   #3
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I wouldn't mind a toggle switch but yeah, push button start is just laziness at near pinnacle. Soon there will be voice recognition systems and you'll just have to say "start" or something similar.

While I don't use left foot braking, because I haven't taken my car to the track and there isn't an affordable option to do so around here, I can see people bitching about systems like this. This is using more overcomplicated engineering to solve a problem caused by overcomplicated engineering.

Is there a real reason they don't want to use cables anymore? Cheaper to assemble I assume.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:33 PM   #4
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DBW is a good thing. Electronic throttle control = better control. Better emissions, fuel efficiency, fewer components to fail. No need for idle control valves or whatever they are called.

All that is needed is some brain and three few basic mechanical failsafes. Many Toyota owners fail in both aspects.

As far push button being "convenient". Again, this is marketing types idea. Buttons usually make poor interfaces. Dials, knobs, rotary switches are usually far better because they can provide tactile feedback. Something especially important in a car. E.g. A/C temp controls via buttons is a crime (like in new Legacy) compared to good dials (even dial-by-wire dials like in the previous Legacy).
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:12 PM   #5
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damn that car is fast.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
Is there a real reason they don't want to use cables anymore? Cheaper to assemble I assume.
Yes, and it's not because it's cheaper. This is an engineering standpoint to work from. If you no longer have to have a cable, thus you no longer have to worry about where to place things in the engine compartment relative to the cable assembly, you are a bit more free, within certain limits, to better utilize that space.

Put it this way: if you had drive-by-wire, brake-by-wire, steering-by-wire and clutch-by-wire, you can basically put the engine, transmission, suspension, steering rack more-or-less where you want to because there would be no more intrusion through the firewall, excluding the wiring to connect everything together.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Big-E View Post
Put it this way: if you had drive-by-wire, brake-by-wire, steering-by-wire and clutch-by-wire, you can basically put the engine, transmission, suspension, steering rack more-or-less where you want to because there would be no more intrusion through the firewall, excluding the wiring to connect everything together.
And have everything a greater chance of malfunctioning.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:52 PM   #8
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And have everything a greater chance of malfunctioning.
never had a cable get sticky huh? I have on my old Sentra, had a clutch cable get sticky on my old GTI, I could go on. There are pros and cons to every system, carbs were cheap and simple but terribly inefficent and afforded no real emissions control, catalytic converters clean the exhaust but rob effeciency.

The Toyota recalls are nothing short of a witchhunt. when a statistically insignificant number of problems are reported (something on the order of 0.001%) and they still issue a recall. We've heard little to nothing about the GM, Chrysler, Honda recalls in the media let alone the dumb Hyundai Sonata recall. I think time will show this is a drastic case of overreaction and ToMoCo will be fine.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:03 AM   #9
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I think time will show this is a drastic case of overreaction and ToMoCo will be fine.
Either way, the PR damage will have been done.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:50 AM   #10
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The Toyota mess is a nice distraction from everything else that's going on in this country isn't it

But, I don't own a tinfoil hat and this isn't PP.

Related to drive by wire, there is a point where things become too complicated. If the choice were there, I'd pay a couple hundred extra to have mechanical connections. I don't think I'm the only one.
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
This is so retarded. An electronic solution to an electronic problem.

How about a simple foolproof mechanical ignition cut?

Wait.....! Ignition key is such!

Instead of the software controll push button, they could put mechanical rotary switch that would simulate (and operate) like a traditional key, but would give you keyless start feature. Would be familiar to people unaccustomed to push button starts and play exactly same role with much more intuitive and foolproof interface. But the biggest problem with it is the marketing idiots could not tout it as "button" feature.
yeah real smart turn your car off when its accelerating uncontrollably...lose power steering and power brakes.
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:15 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
yeah real smart turn your car off when its accelerating uncontrollably...lose power steering and power brakes.
If that's your only option, it's better than continued acceleration and burnt brakes/boiling fluid.

Neutral should always be your first response. If that fails, yes turning the engine off is the right option. The steering shouldn't lock if you keep it in the I position. I electronics on, steering unlocked II car on, ignition engaged III Starter engaged

Power steering when you're moving is not necessary, it's just a convenience.

edit: What happens when the brake over ride fails and people still don't know what to do? As others have said in other threads, stupidity and ignorance are the problem, it doesn't matter how much you try to engineer to compensate for it.

Last edited by Tim-H; 03-09-2010 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
If that's your only option, it's better than continued acceleration and burnt brakes/boiling fluid.

Neutral should always be your first response. If that fails, yes turning the engine off is the right option. The steering shouldn't lock if you keep it in the I position. I electronics on, steering unlocked II car on, ignition engaged III Starter engaged

Power steering when you're moving is not necessary, it's just a convenience.

edit: What happens when the brake over ride fails and people still don't know what to do? As others have said in other threads, stupidity and ignorance are the problem, it doesn't matter how much you try to engineer to compensate for it.
kind of hard to imagine neutral failing
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
kind of hard to imagine neutral failing
So for you it's hard to imagine a human failing to properly place a car in Neutral?



-------------

better yet, if you really are hell bent on your opinion: take a look at this transmission control:



If the little "joystick" fails to send the signal (via wires, because in this case: it sure as hell isn't directly attached to your transmission) to go into Neutral = Then you have just experienced "failure" to get a car into Neutral.

-------------

The root causes of this issue are over engineering and uneducated consumers
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
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kind of hard to imagine neutral failing
Some cars ignore your request to switch to neutral. I know early Dodge Neons ignored a request for neutral from the driver until they were fixed.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:04 AM   #16
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People, stop coddling the morons. This is a blip in the recall world... nothing more. This is a PR stunt to make GM look better. Toyota will fix the problem and it will all go away. The only folks left making this an issue are the worthless trashy lawyers trying to score a big payday.

NO new systems need to be introduced, no more half assed reactionary engineering to account for human stupidity.

Cars accelerating out of control is not at epidemic proportions, it is not even widespread. The ignorant population of this country would believe it to be as the news is hyping it way out of proportion. 99.999% of the vehicles toyota builds are not having this or any other issue. I have friends that are so dumb now they refuse to drive toyotas, as they believe the hype. Sheep. Mindless sheep.

Toyota did not handle this problem correctly in the beginning, I will grant you that, but I would bet they did the exact same thing that every other car company does and try to keep it quiet at first, or minimize the bad press. The news just decided to go after them as its headlines when Toyota makes a mistake.

This country is famous for mindless reactionary legislation. Just like the idiots at TSA in the airport. WE use to be able to wear shoes through security. But nope, reactionary measures now state we must xray them. Same with shampoo, the evil sweat from Satan that it is must now be xrayed as well. I wonder what other freedoms we will lose when the next terrorist decides to put explosives in his tooth fillings... Guess we will need dental xrays then.

It is all a dog and pony show to give the mindless sheep of the country the 'feeling' that something is being done. All this crap we go through when we fly is BS, and does no real good.

Now back to toyota. THey are fixing the problem. When something breaks, you figure out why, and you fix it. You do not add more systems to the same car. That does nothing but increase the price, the weight, and complexity of the system.

Every car is able to be shut down some how. As a driver, figure it out!!
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:07 AM   #17
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Foot note: The good news is this country has the attention span of a flea with ADD. Some air headed starlet will say something about baby pelicans and we will forget all about this in a month.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:36 AM   #18
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Wow, that car really is fast.
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:44 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
yeah real smart turn your car off when its accelerating uncontrollably...lose power steering and power brakes.
You don't have power brakes at WOT anyway.
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:54 AM   #20
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This is a PR stunt to make GM look better.
Nice of the media to conspire with the gov't to make GM look better. Hell, even the Japanese media is in on the conspiracy.

Wait, what?

The Toyota issue is almost entirely due to horrid handling of the situation by Toyota. They are demonstrating in detail how not to manage a PR crisis.

Quote:
Now back to toyota. THey are fixing the problem.
And yet, if this were GM, would you have the same attitude? Or is there perhaps a bit of a double standard?

Toyota earned this. Their quality has been slipping noticeably for several years and it was only a matter of time before something bit them on the ass.
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:19 AM   #21
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Nice of the media to conspire with the gov't to make GM look better. Hell, even the Japanese media is in on the conspiracy.

Wait, what?

The Toyota issue is almost entirely due to horrid handling of the situation by Toyota. They are demonstrating in detail how not to manage a PR crisis.

And yet, if this were GM, would you have the same attitude? Or is there perhaps a bit of a double standard?

Toyota earned this. Their quality has been slipping noticeably for several years and it was only a matter of time before something bit them on the ass.
yeah, the media and this government (owner of GM) are never on the same page are they.. HAHA.. It is in this governments best interest to paint Toyota like a villain. Just another example why it is bad to have the government owning the private sector. The truth is though, that this whole debacle probably helped VW more than anybody else.

Granted it is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but not as far fetched as some. I already admitted that they handled this somewhat poorly. I will reiterate that I do not think they did much worse than any other car company.

Would I bash GM on this. Sure, but I would point out the lack of publicity on GM recalls as of late. They are there, no doubt, but just not getting the press. What about the chrylser minivan air bag sensors that are malfunctioning? They are not getting a senate hearing, and Chrysler will not even issue a public recall on those.

The double standard runs both ways, and I think Toyota is getting the short end of the stick. They screwed up, no doubt, but they will fix this and move on.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:45 PM   #22
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If everyone still drove manuals this wouldn't be a problem, but nooooooo everyone wants it easy. Waahh waaahhh I can't drive a manual in traffic it's too hard. It's called you don't know how to drive... stupid lazy tools.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
yeah, the media and this government (owner of GM) are never on the same page are they.. HAHA.. It is in this governments best interest to paint Toyota like a villain. Just another example why it is bad to have the government owning the private sector. The truth is though, that this whole debacle probably helped VW more than anybody else.

Granted it is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but not as far fetched as some. I already admitted that they handled this somewhat poorly. I will reiterate that I do not think they did much worse than any other car company.

Would I bash GM on this. Sure, but I would point out the lack of publicity on GM recalls as of late. They are there, no doubt, but just not getting the press. What about the chrylser minivan air bag sensors that are malfunctioning? They are not getting a senate hearing, and Chrysler will not even issue a public recall on those.

The double standard runs both ways, and I think Toyota is getting the short end of the stick. They screwed up, no doubt, but they will fix this and move on.
Another runaway toyota. This time a Prius.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

I don't think Toyota got any short end of the stick, in my opinion they almost got away with it... just too many damn cases for the press to ignore.

You know there was a time, not more than a couple of years ago, when I would have had nothing to do with GM. The kind of cars they had, and their reliability record, all were horrible in my opinion. However, today, if I have to buy a midsized car or a crossover, I will seriously give their vehicles a second look. I cannot say the same about Toyota or Honda. They don't seem to have any passion for cars anymore. This is my opinion though, and it only takes into consideration the kind of the products each company offers right now. Nothing more, nothing less.

From my lurking on this forums for the last three years, I can say that you know a fair bit about cars, which I respect, but you are very irrational and paranoid when it comes to the current administration. Again, this is just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:33 PM   #24
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Anyone thinks that the Prius owner set this up? It's strange how these problems all of the sudden multiply. Must be a disease indeed

Any person with two digit IQ would try to shut the car down not keep driving at 90+ mph in an uncontrolled fashion. Apparently he knew how do it and it worked when he did it later. He said he did not shut down the engine right away because he was afraid to loose power steering.... But he was not afraid to be on the phone calling 911 in meantime.

Smelly.
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:00 PM   #25
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Foot note: The good news is this country has the attention span of a flea with ADD. Some air headed starlet will say something about baby pelicans and we will forget all about this in a month.
Wait what happening to the baby pelicans?





What are we talking..........about???








Who wants to go ride some bikes?
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