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Old 01-24-2011, 05:16 PM   #1501
raffi@full-race
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
the 8374 is more like a 73 lbm turbo.....the lines that go out to 79 lbm are the compressor rpm lines...not the efficiency islands. and at some point garrett seems to have added some lines to the gt35 comp map and it goes to ~68 lbm. It used to look more like the one thats on ATP's site.

as for it spooling faster.....how impressive it is really depends on what turbine housing was on the gt35......which one was it? the rsx forum wont load for me.

as for the comparison in general.....seems kind of unfair to test new BW turbos vs old Garretts......its like testing an HTA86 or a gtx vs an old gt35 and being surprised that the 86 and gtx make more power.

This specific comparison was perfectly fair from my point of view. His Garrett turbine housing was a .82 and the EFR is a .83. This test uses the same dyno, same tuner, same fuel, same manifold with just a blockoff plate for the IWG. I've been corresponding with this specific customer and after putitng many miles on this weekend - he is stating that although the spool time doesn't look considerable on the dyno, there is far less lag on the EFR when driving, a "night and day" difference.
It is understood that a dyno is the worst way to show gains in response or reduction in friction/inertia... this test is purely comparing the compressor wheels to each other. The compressor wheel does whatever the tubine wheel tells it to do, so the quicker the turbine wheel responds the quicker you will get boost. No other turbo on the market has anything like this on the turbine side to lower the rotating assy's inertia. and this is only at 15psi, when he gets to 30psi the gap will get much larger..

side note: When a compressor wheel is rated for max flow, the proper way to measure that is right before choke flow obviously. Choke flow is the maximum amount of air that can go through a hole, in this case of the EFR 8374 it's a 62.7mm hole. This also gives us the speed line to reference of 128,100. With sierra sierra people are pushing their turbos to 30+psi they can reach ~79lb/min. more info here: http://forums.evolutionm.net/9009040-post31.html
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:00 PM   #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Not really such a 'weird' comparo I think if you remember that there was a direct comparison of a 35R with that .82 single against a regular 83-75 and they overlaid each other almost exactly.
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Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Yeah, but didn't we call that 35R compressor/turbine ratio a bit of a mismatch for that very reason and hence why we like the Borgs a bit better?
if they overlaid almost exactly, then how would that prove the ratio is better? or why would u like the bw better?

And based on that could we assume that the gtx35 would overlay the efr8375?

isnt it more impressive that the lesser flowing gt35 is making the same power as a turbo thats rated higher and has a "better" ratio?
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:09 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
And based on that could we assume that the gtx35 would overlay the efr8375?
Would be a nice test wouldn't you agree?
Quote:
isnt it more impressive that the lesser flowing gt35 is making the same power as a turbo thats rated higher and has a "better" ratio?
I dunno: 35R has ball-bearing and costs $600-700 more, what would you call impressive?

We can keep doing this theoretical games all day. I'll rather wait for some more real world tests like above though..
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:17 PM   #1504
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Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
I dunno: 35R has ball-bearing and costs $600-700 more, what would you call impressive?
.
and how much is an EFR 8375 compared to a gtx35?

i can play that game too....
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:52 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
and how much is an EFR 8375 compared to a gtx35?

i can play that game too....
GTX3582R @ atpturbo.com is $1795.61 without a turbine housing. Add $395 for a 1.06 T4 divided vband exit housing totaling to $2190.61. A turbine Housing with T3 Undivided inlet and 3" GT V-Band exit is not that much less @ $386.74. Full Race retail pricing on T4 1.05 EWG 8374 EFR is $2049 on their website. If you gave them a call it was even less.

Borg Warner is less plus you saves you on a bov and electronic boost solenoid for the EWG version. A couple hundred more for the IWG version saves you from purchasing 2 external waste gates and dump tubes saving several hundred more. Not to mention the BW has a ss investment cast turbine housing, redesigned ti-alum turbine wheel, dual piston ring oil seal, race duty steel caged ceramic bearing cartridge, built in oil restrictor, FMW extended tip comp wheel, better matched turbine to compressor wheels than the Garrett GTX series turbos.

Last edited by methaddict; 01-24-2011 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:07 PM   #1506
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Well, you guys are at least entertaining.

It is hard to compare one comp wheel to another, as the BW shine in the higher comp areas, and for our cars most won't be seeing much over 25-30 psi.

At any rate, you guys all seem to miss the big deal here. The substantial loss of mass in the turbine wheel. That is what is going to make these turbos drive soo much better. That is what will allow a bigger EFR (which we will need due to lower PR on our cars) to feel like a smaller turbo.

In all honesty, I think the GTX wheels are a better match for our cars (2.5 liter) but until Garrett comes out with a turbine wheel that is this light (and a proper TS IWG) they are lagging (pun intended) behind.
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:42 PM   #1507
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My gtx35 with 0.63 tial should be in this week. Maybe I'll do some testing then sell it and get an efr .
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:58 PM   #1508
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my e-turbine is bigger!! lol

c'mon subie numbers pleeeaase!!
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:14 PM   #1509
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my e-turbine is bigger!! lol

c'mon subie numbers pleeeaase!!
lol
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:06 PM   #1510
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hey alcoolaid , I was talking to martinsti05 about his s360 and I like his numbers, I wanted to ask you too, I saw a few videos of you on youtube, you have an s360 as well right? is yours with ett? what kind of numbers did u make on pump gas? whats your best time at the track? pump and race gas or whatever u have please
thanks!
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:41 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT
At any rate, you guys all seem to miss the big deal here. The substantial loss of mass in the turbine wheel. That is what is going to make these turbos drive soo much better. That is what will allow a bigger EFR (which we will need due to lower PR on our cars) to feel like a smaller turbo.
You said it best, even if the compressor maps are IDENTICAL, the titanium turbine wheel will always win.. Period.. So you'll have to compensate by purchasing a much smaller A/R to rival spool time, which in turn will result in falling on your face in the upper rpms..
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:42 PM   #1512
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Originally Posted by qmania2 View Post
hey alcoolaid , I was talking to martinsti05 about his s360 and I like his numbers, I wanted to ask you too, I saw a few videos of you on youtube, you have an s360 as well right? is yours with ett? what kind of numbers did u make on pump gas? whats your best time at the track? pump and race gas or whatever u have please
thanks!
Nope. s300sx 83-75. Don't know how it compares to an s360.

Pump gas I had it up to 583whp sae corrected. I was trapping 127mph @ 11.2 on 18" rims w/ street tires. Only made 2 passes on 2 different days. Mostly road course car not so much into the drag racing.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:44 PM   #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by methaddict

GTX3582R @ atpturbo.com is $1795.61 without a turbine housing. Add $395 for a 1.06 T4 divided vband exit housing totaling to $2190.61. A turbine Housing with T3 Undivided inlet and 3" GT V-Band exit is not that much less @ $386.74. Full Race retail pricing on T4 1.05 EWG 8374 EFR is $2049 on their website. If you gave them a call it was even less.

Borg Warner is less plus you saves you on a bov and electronic boost solenoid for the EWG version. A couple hundred more for the IWG version saves you from purchasing 2 external waste gates and dump tubes saving several hundred more. Not to mention the BW has a ss investment cast turbine housing, redesigned ti-alum turbine wheel, dual piston ring oil seal, race duty steel caged ceramic bearing cartridge, built in oil restrictor, FMW extended tip comp wheel, better matched turbine to compressor wheels than the Garrett GTX series turbos.
Wow Ronny... Speechless.. Where do I sign... Haha..
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:00 AM   #1514
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Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
Nope. s300sx 83-75. Don't know how it compares to an s360.

Pump gas I had it up to 583whp sae corrected. I was trapping 127mph @ 11.2 on 18" rims w/ street tires. Only made 2 passes on 2 different days. Mostly road course car not so much into the drag racing.
I also had an 83-75... .91 AR T4 twinscroll.

583 on straight pumpgas?? Yowzers...
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:36 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by methaddict View Post
GTX3582R @ atpturbo.com is $1795.61 without a turbine housing. Add $395 for a 1.06 T4 divided vband exit housing totaling to $2190.61. A turbine Housing with T3 Undivided inlet and 3" GT V-Band exit is not that much less @ $386.74. Full Race retail pricing on T4 1.05 EWG 8374 EFR is $2049 on their website. If you gave them a call it was even less.

Borg Warner is less plus you saves you on a bov and electronic boost solenoid for the EWG version. A couple hundred more for the IWG version saves you from purchasing 2 external waste gates and dump tubes saving several hundred more. Not to mention the BW has a ss investment cast turbine housing, redesigned ti-alum turbine wheel, dual piston ring oil seal, race duty steel caged ceramic bearing cartridge, built in oil restrictor, FMW extended tip comp wheel, better matched turbine to compressor wheels than the Garrett GTX series turbos.
this makes me giggle
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:52 AM   #1516
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Originally Posted by MartinSTi05 View Post
I also had an 83-75... .91 AR T4 twinscroll.

583 on straight pumpgas?? Yowzers...
pump + 50/50 meth hahaha
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:04 AM   #1517
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I agree with that dude. I'm starting with nothing again so the added features of the EFR like the boost control solenoid, BOV, and two waste-gates I didn't have to buy saved me some loot. Just put it this way, the EFR 7670 kit I have coming with reverse manifold FMIC kit was a good bit cheaper than what you could build a comparable kit with the old 75-70 on there website now. I was already sold on the S256 but that sealed the deal for me. Borg Warner EFR FTMFW!!!!!!!
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:04 AM   #1518
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Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
Nope. s300sx 83-75. Don't know how it compares to an s360.

Pump gas I had it up to 583whp sae corrected. I was trapping 127mph @ 11.2 on 18" rims w/ street tires. Only made 2 passes on 2 different days. Mostly road course car not so much into the drag racing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
pump + 50/50 meth hahaha
I belive that is the s360 lol. my p/n is a 177272 its an s300sx or sx3 idr off hand 83-75, I was curious how much power I was gonna make lol. and if you made 583whp that is just insane lol, so on pump gas only would be somewhere around 500. I was hoping to break 10s with this turbo and seeing how you said 18" rims with street tires and u went 11.2, I think I might be able to do it! haha. What do you have done for head work? I have a fully sleeved short block, aebs sleeves, wiseco pistons, cosworth rods and acl race main and rod bearings. Thanks for the info!
-Cory
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:57 PM   #1519
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At any rate, you guys all seem to miss the big deal here. The substantial loss of mass in the turbine wheel. That is what is going to make these turbos drive soo much better.
Oh, but I DID adress that already a few posts back 'LitteBlueGT'! (see former page):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Even so, how do you measure transition and boost recovery?
I'll say it again then: It would be nice if somebody would have some sort of standard or measuring method to show transition and boost recovery 'values'.

My old DOM3 with 8cm² turbine housing did still take a while to get to full boost after a shift.
For example here's a log of a 1/4 mile run I did, shifts from 2-3 and 3-4. It almost takes half a second after 100% throtte is back to get to full boost again. In a drag race, I think thats quite a long time...
Car drives from right to left on these logs:


I hope my 'non-EFR' 84-75 will not be worse in that department, time will tell though .
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:05 PM   #1520
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My old DOM3 with 8cm² turbine housing did still take a while to get to full boost after a shift.
FMIC or TMIC?
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:18 PM   #1521
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I belive that is the s360 lol. my p/n is a 177272 its an s300sx or sx3 idr off hand 83-75, I was curious how much power I was gonna make lol. and if you made 583whp that is just insane lol, so on pump gas only would be somewhere around 500. I was hoping to break 10s with this turbo and seeing how you said 18" rims with street tires and u went 11.2, I think I might be able to do it! haha. What do you have done for head work? I have a fully sleeved short block, aebs sleeves, wiseco pistons, cosworth rods and acl race main and rod bearings. Thanks for the info!
-Cory
on pump gas only i don't think i'd make 500. max boost i'd run is like 21psi on pump gas so that's more like 450.

yeah on 17" drag radials i'll definitely go 10's

fully ported heads, 276/272 kelford avcs cams, supertech +1mm valves, supertech dual valve springs
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:08 PM   #1522
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FMIC or TMIC?
FMIC, but with comparetively real short piping
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:39 PM   #1523
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I plan on logging my drag races to make judgements on boost recovery
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:49 PM   #1524
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Interesting discussion.. Im hoping to have my 8374 t/4 1.05 ext wastegate arrive somewhere in Feb for a tune in early March.

The setup will be a direct comparison to my current GT40R 1.06 ext setup on a built 2.5 ltr...
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:16 PM   #1525
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Interesting discussion.. Im hoping to have my 8374 t/4 1.05 ext wastegate arrive somewhere in Feb for a tune in early March.

The setup will be a direct comparison to my current GT40R 1.06 ext setup on a built 2.5 ltr...
TS or single? sweet
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