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Old 03-18-2010, 11:19 AM   #1
96SubyImpreza
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Default Gruppe-S Engine rebuilt and similar options? Opinions needed!!

So I'm looking to rebuild my EJ205 while I have it out, most likely for something along the lines of 18G plus meth in the near future.

For now, I know it seems like overkill but I'm going to be running it on stage 2 plus meth, TD04 obviously.

2004 WRX
145k miles (hence why I figured it'd be nice to see what's going on inside).
Stock turbo
SPT intake
Snow meth kit
most likely greddy fmic (again, overkill but it's much easier to mount the meth nozzle than the little stock top mount)
protuned

all going into a Chargespeed widebody

The Gruppe-S Engine Rebuild Kit includes:
CP (std) or (+020) Pistons
CP Piston Rings
Helix Forged Rods
ACL Coated Race Main/Rod Bearings


Free shipping, everything for a grand. Seems like a pretty solid deal to me?

Has anyone had experience with these pistons, rings, rods, bearings etc. Any complaints? Anyone have any idea of what type of power they can handle? Lastly, are there any other deals out there for around the same price range that offer a better product??
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:46 AM   #2
96SubyImpreza
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:00 PM   #3
ownnij
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6spd, GT3076R, Alky & EWG

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i don't blame you for wanting to do a rebuild on a high mileage motor and might as well go forged if your doing it but i would suggest going with a ej257 build instead.

i found my ej257 shortblock with a damaged ringland on #4 for $300 bucks and i invested in some arp bolts, bearings, forged pistons. it'll end up costing the same and more benefical. plus you can build the shortblock on the side this way and sell your stocker whenever your finished.

anyways for your powerband you can get away with oem sti rods. they run for like $100 bucks... i saw crawford selling brand new ones for that much on the vendor threads.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:17 PM   #4
96SubyImpreza
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Yeaa I haven't come across any affordable 257 shortblocks in the area, I did consider a 2.5 since it would be a lot more beneficial but I'm out of a car, I need one to drive, this needs to go relatively quickly, and I'm not looking to make any 450whp or anything, so I believe a 2.0 with an 18G would hold be over for quite a while.

Let me ask you this, I've never looked into what internal components are interchangeable between the 257 and the 205, I've heard that you can stroke it by using the 257 crank in the 205 or something of the nature but I never researched it. I'm gonna do some searches but if you have any information to throw in, by all means go for it.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:54 PM   #5
Concillian
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yes, you can.

257 crank & rods (rods are the same as 205)
2.0L bore pistons with EJ257 comp height.

If you're going for 18Gish power, then STi rods are fine and probably ~$100 cheaper than Helix rods.

There are some "off the shelf" stroker pistons from Manley and Mahle that may be suitable to your application and may have shorter lead times. IF you're talking with Gruppe-S, they've offered stroker engines in the past and will probably have a source for the right pistons. Otherwise ask someone who deals in Manley pistons to order their stroker pistons for you. nobody probably stocks them, but Manley should have them available on relatively short lead times.

http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/2010/pistons.pdf
page 110 is Subaru.
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:48 PM   #6
hybrid gti 2
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145k is not the end of the road. You still likely have time for choices. I just got a used ej207 short block for $1500.

My suggestion keep reading as there are plenty of pro and cons on this setup.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:53 AM   #7
96SubyImpreza
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Could I run STi rods on a stock wrx crank???

If I ran the Manley stroker pistons that increased stroke from 75mm to 79mm (maintaining the 8.5:1 CR) could I do so with that type of setup, and what would it increase the displacement to approximately??

Is there anything else I would need to do to compensate for the increased stroke? Both mechanically and tuning-wise??
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:55 AM   #8
96SubyImpreza
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Also, I'm going to go search this topic right now, but does stroking a motor have any effect on the longevity of the motor??

I can see this having an effect on the longevity of my stock 04 tranny though hahaha. We're going to need to invest in some PPG's eventually.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:15 PM   #9
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96SubyImpreza View Post
Could I run STi rods on a stock wrx crank???

If I ran the Manley stroker pistons that increased stroke from 75mm to 79mm (maintaining the 8.5:1 CR) could I do so with that type of setup, and what would it increase the displacement to approximately??

Is there anything else I would need to do to compensate for the increased stroke? Both mechanically and tuning-wise??
Rods on the WRX and STI are the same dimension. 75mm crank (2.0L) and 79mm crank (2.5L) both use the same dimension rods. So yes, you can use STi rods in any "typical" Phase 2 Subaru engine configuration

The pistons don't change displacement. The crank does. The 79mm crank adds 4mm extra stroke. 2mm up and 2mm down. Total is about 79/75 (1.0533 = 5.33% more) more displacement at any given bore. ~2.1 at std bore. 2.125 at +.020bore.

Because the pistons are pushed 2mm higher, you need a piston with wrist pin location moved ~2mm closer to the top of the piston... or else it would push out and into the head. Also the compression ratio is different, so the stroker pistons also use a different dish shape in the top of the piston to correct the CR.

The longer stroke tends to spool turbos sooner, it effectively moves the torque curve a little to the left. The extra displacement gives a little boost in torque across the board. The result is more drivable torque than a basic ej205 configuration. If internals are balanced, then 7500-8000 rpm redline is feasible.

Tuning, does need to change some due to the engine changes, but this is a given anytime you build an engine (if you have a custom tune).

While it increases torque low, and that can endanger your tranny, in comparison with the other typical engine change (using a STi shortblock with 2.0L wrx heads) it's less torque than that option. The displacement is low enough that it doesn't typically create a really large torque peak with the typical sized turbos people use (vfXX - 20G size) like the 2.5L engine can. Yes, your tranny has to play a role in the decision, but this one of the milder upgrades in terms of torque.

Longevity wise, it's basically turned into an engine identical to a 2.5L WRX or STi engine, but with lighter pistons due to the smaller bore. Theoretically slightly higher piston side loads than an EJ205 design, but it should be at least as strong as the EJ255 / 257 that Subaru puts in all their turbo USDM cars now.

Last edited by Concillian; 03-19-2010 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:29 PM   #10
Concillian
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accidental double post.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:09 PM   #11
96SubyImpreza
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You are genius sir, I tip my hat. Thank you very much!!
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Old 03-19-2010, 05:24 PM   #12
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96SubyImpreza View Post
You are genius sir, I tip my hat. Thank you very much!!
Not a genius. Just started the research before you. If I was a genius I would have just figured all this stuff out on my own instead of having to learn it from reading in 30 different places and talking to engine builders, etc...

I'm not building my block for like 18 months. I like to plan WELL in advance
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