Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday July 24, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Custom Fabrication, Welding & Tools

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-25-2010, 05:52 PM   #26
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post


On a personal note about the oil cooler going on my personal car.... well, to be completely honest I drive like an A$$ Hole... not really but that is what a lot of peoples opinions are who don't know how to drive...
Honestly, my normal cruising speed is usually 90mph, and I always weave through traffic......Ive gone through 3 motors, and 2 trannys(now moved on to an 04 because it's stronger) in the last 2 years(90k miles)...Not that I race... cuz I really don't-I just get where I'm going fast.

I Make almost everything on my car - BOV/Clutch/Racing Radiator/and the Air filter in my custom intake - aside, every mod on my car was fabricated by myself! ( and before I blew my EJ205 I was running 285hp/305tq with NO TUNING and all bolt-on items that I created that were probably better than a lot of ones you can buy!)

Motto - Drive fast
Lesson to live by - Hesitation kills!!! Do it, and do it NOW! (and you better use you're god damned signal!)
2nd Lesson to live by - Stay out of my way... that one is for you to learn!
I know you're not looking for opinions, but when you brag about the above, I just can't resist.

1. Grow up and stop driving like a douche. You could very well be the guy we read about who gets in a wreck, balls up your car, walks away without a scratch, BUT winds up putting someone else in the hospital.

2. I wouldn't brag so much about all your custom made bits. Between your 'hard' driving and home made bolt-on performance your car has the reliability of a Skoda. Anyone on this forum will tell you that increasing your power (whatever the actual increase was) and 'NO TUNING' as you put it, is a recipe for disaster.

3. Good luck and stay in PA.....

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2010, 08:00 PM   #27
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

I'm right with you in the fact that I would love to see actual numbers produced from testing. Unfortunatly my blown 2.0 is hanging from a crane in the garage, and my 04 STI motor and rest of swap stuff is still en-route.

I have access to countless small to semi-large oil coolers that were either used for auto trans fluid or power steering/something similar to that. The one I am thinking of using looks like it has great potential.
I've been researching the cooler in the feed line idea all day. With what I've found I think I'm confident enough to install it on my car once I receive the motor, however I don't think I am going to run the oil lines all the way out to the front of the car near the radiator... instead, I think I'm going to try and place it near the stock air filter location. I have no wheel well on that side, not to mention there are 2 holes for the snorkus to be attached to. I have corrigated tin tubing run from underneath my car/from the vents in my bumper to the 2 holes... I've always used it to direct cold air towards my air filter. It seems to me that if I were to locate the oil cooler near there, but not right next to the air filter, that It would get nice air flow, and the lines would be about level with the turbo, and not too long-Hence impacting the flow-oil pressure-and resistance to gravitational pull as little as possible!
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2010, 08:12 PM   #28
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
I know you're not looking for opinions, but when you brag about the above, I just can't resist.

1. Grow up and stop driving like a douche. You could very well be the guy we read about who gets in a wreck, balls up your car, walks away without a scratch, BUT winds up putting someone else in the hospital.

2. I wouldn't brag so much about all your custom made bits. Between your 'hard' driving and home made bolt-on performance your car has the reliability of a Skoda. Anyone on this forum will tell you that increasing your power (whatever the actual increase was) and 'NO TUNING' as you put it, is a recipe for disaster.

3. Good luck and stay in PA.....

ok... I may be exaggerating a little. Tequilla was getting the best of me that night.
I do drive fast, but never reckless... and honestly I promote people driving like they know what they are doing regaurdless of the speed-scratch that(not "LIKE" they know what they are doing, but KNOWING what they are doing.) People who drive slow and don't use a signal/look in their mirrors(ex: Grandpa wearing a hat driving a chrysler LaBaron) are the dangerous ones. I am in complete control of my car and am aware of everything that is going on at all times. My mods are not ones that are damaging my car... it is the length of time that it is driving at greater than normally expected capacities. And as far as tuning-I record a lot of data via gauges and data loggers/ and use manual methods of tuning that most people don't commonly address. Been in a tough spot lately... Not goin out an spending 600 on an accesport.

And yes... I am expecting some to question the 'manual tuning' just let it go... these posts about stuff like that are not what this thread is for. Just stick with I know what I am doing/I don't abuse my vehicles(I actually baby them) they are just used a lot, and to their maximum efficiency.
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 05:44 PM   #29
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

So... I have a heater core that has very tightly backed fins and cooling rows (20) It will be very effective I beleive... I was about to do a pressure test on it to make sure it can handle the load. However I realized that I don't know what the pressure of our oil systems are!?

Anyone... info please!!??
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 06:20 PM   #30
FourOnTheFloor65
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 106225
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Fairmont WV
Vehicle:
02 WRX STied PSM
03 L, 05 GT Legacy Wagons

Default

There are some problems I see with running the cooler in the turbo oil feed line. They stem from the fact that there simply isn't very much flow there. If you run a cooler that is fairly large, the velocity will slow down a lot and the oil will spend a lot of time in the cooler, which will drop it's temperature a lot. It could lower the temp enough so that it is below the point where oil isn't as effective. This could cause long term problems with the bearings in the turbo, since it is like your turbo is running cold start temperature oil all the time. When this oil drains into the pan it will still be cooler than the oil in the pan. When it mixes the average oil temp will drop. If you use a small cooler so that the oil isn't cooled as drastically, this will not cause problems with the bearings, but less heat is removed from the system, and this won't drop the overall oil temp that much. Also adding a cooler here is going to create another restriction (pressure loss) in that branch of the oiling system. So you will get even less flow through it than before the cooler was installed. Which means less flow through your turbo. I don't feel like sitting down and calculating all of this. If you want to you can, it's your project. This may seem to you like a really good, new idea. It probably isn't new. I'm sure many people have thought about this before, and there are many reasons that it is not used. This seems like a bad idea to me. Look at pretty much every oil cooling system, ever. They all flow a large flow rate of fluid at high pressure and high velocity, where the average temperature drop across the cooler isn't very much.

If your main concern was dropping the oil temps that the turbo sees, then adding a small cooler here would be a great idea. But you seem to be concerned with dropping the average oil temp in the motor. In order to size the cooler large enough to do this it is going to cause worse (more expensive to fix) problems.

The reason that most oil coolers get flow from the filter is that 100% of the oil flowing through the motor's countless oiling branches is flowing through the oil filter. So 100% of the oil flows through the cooler. It does so at a fairly high velocity and doesn't stay in the cooler very long. This in turn doesn't drop the oil temp very much, but since all the oil in the motor is flowing through it, the average oil temp drops a significant amount. And it isn't dropping the temp of a portion of the oil out of it's effective range. Basically, it's better to cool 100% of the oil 2 degrees than 2% of the oil 100 degrees.


In my opinion the best way for most cars to cool oil is to have a large finned aluminum oil pan. There is no added pressure loss, and no added complication to the system. This doesn't work so well with Subaru motors because of the exhaust being right there. That is why I suggested the extra pump setup.
FourOnTheFloor65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 09:22 PM   #31
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Lightbulb

I hear what you are saying... not saying you are wrong either. Definitely going to consider those possibilities. However, (I could be wrong) if i would run an oil line out of the block, directly to an oil cooler (its not too small, and not too big,) with a check valve right after it leaves the block... and I primed the lines/cooler so it always contained oil than the pressure wouldn't drop signifigantly because it is being pushed through at a certain rate-so it would have to push through the cooler at the same rate.

Earlier today I was studying my engine(the blown 2.0---I don't know if the EJ257 I am getting has the same part about to be reviewed) and was reviewing the plumbing. In the front-right under the belt covers, but over the exhaust crossover- there is a line that runs out of the mounting area for the oil filter. This then travels over to the right> into the thermostat housing(lower radiator hose connect to block.) The solid metal oil line is about a foot long.
I started throwing the idea around in my head about removing that line, and instead connecting a line to one end(filter area,) running it to the oil cooler(which would be short and sweet because of the location,) and right back to the thermostat housing area! This is a main oil line, and with the oil coming right from the filter it would be a constant(100% capacity) source to feed the cooler without poorly effecting the oiling system.
I can't think of any reason replacing this line with an oil cooler assembly could really negatively impact the system!?!... Unless that line doesn't do what I think it does....

Does anyone have any ideas about an oil cooler being interjected there?

Last edited by Maverick7531; 03-26-2010 at 09:30 PM.
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 09:36 PM   #32
FourOnTheFloor65
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 106225
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Fairmont WV
Vehicle:
02 WRX STied PSM
03 L, 05 GT Legacy Wagons

Default

Well, before you go cutting that line or hose you should know that, that is a coolant line not an oil line. It feeds coolant either to or from the factory water to oil, oil cooler.
FourOnTheFloor65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 09:59 PM   #33
relliMmoT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 206931
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
6MT JBP 318WHP//300WTQ

Default

I was also wondering about the effects on velocity with the abrupt cooling, and the effects of the wide fluctuations of the cooling of the oil on the turbo.
1) The oil is going to slow down as it becomes more dense and gains some viscosity back as it cools, which for overheated oil it would be nice because its going to greaten its coating effect (reducing susceptibility to shear and shock) but for daily driven oil it could bring it below its optimal operating temp while your at highway speeds in January/Feb (You live in Pennsylvania, cold.. Yeah.)- which would NOT be good on a car whose turbo stays in boost at just about all highway speeds!
2) I mentioned highway speeds; what about when you stop? What about when your in residential hoods? What about when your stuck behind an Amish carriage? The flow of air and effect on cooling is going to vary greatly depending upon speed, of course. The widely varying temperature oil thats feeding directly into your turbo is uh... well you want a linear operating condition.
If you are to put it in an area of higher flow you will not see the great drop in fluid motion and viscosity from result of gaining density due to the drop in temp. You will not have wide variances in oil temps feeding your turbine. You will have a cooling effect on your whole oil system- not just whats first on the feeding tube.
It just makes sense to have the oil cooler enter the system where the flow is highest and the overall effect is felt gradually, not sporadically. Or you could do the closed loop system discussed earlier with the auxiliary pump that would only run when your oil is out of its optimum temperature, since you say that your oil gets so very hot at times (but most the time its fine, otherwise Subaru would sell a whole lot less cars).
relliMmoT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 11:23 PM   #34
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Wow, the amount of bad information and faulty thinking in this thread is impressive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
I am thinking about taking an oil cooler and installing it somewhere other than off of a sandwich plate at the oil filter. I was wondering if anyone thought this idea was a good one, or a poor idea, and for what reason/s?
It's a bad idea, for the reason that you figured out on your own later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Also, I'm not so sure that a cooler would work after the turbo, as it could hold up the draining of the oil, and possibly hinder the effectiveness of the bearings!
You will not find an oil-cooled turbo or supercharger anywhere that has any sort of restriction in the drain line back to the oil pan. If, for some reason, that drain line backed up, you'd end up with no flow through your turbo = dead turbo in pretty short order. That's why the oil supply and return are as simple as possible - to minimize the possible failure paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
The only thing i can think of that might hinder this from working is if there is enough oil(volume/pressure) coming out of the turbo to fill the oil cooler and make it effective.
It would be minimally effective at best due to the amount of flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Or, that it would be running down to the cooler, and then back up against gravity to the spout to go back down into the crank case!
That would be a huge problem. You definitely don't want the oil to have to flow uphill. Again, there's a reason the factory drain line is designed the way it is, as a straight, downhill shot from the turbo to the pan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relliMmoT View Post
I was thinking of something along the lines of an off the shelf transmission fluid cooler from vato-zone or advance to keep things simple. like a 12x6" cooler mounted in front of the radiators.
A power steering or transmission cooler is absolutely the wrong thing to use as an oil cooler. Those sorts of coolers use tubing much smaller than a proper oil cooler and would present an excessive restriction to oil flow. That's bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relliMmoT View Post
Now really, is extra oil cooling necessary in my application? Im setting up for AutoX as mentioned, most my driving is 40miles/day highway commute in Louisiana where the lowest avg. weather is like 30F and highest is 110F.
For your application the factory installed oil-to-water cooler is totally sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relliMmoT View Post
So a very important application question im thinking about is if this cooler is all mounted up and seeing 30F (and the 70MPH wind chill!) will the oil be inefficiently cold?
Should the system be bypassed in winters?
A properly designed oil cooler setup either (1) uses a oil thermostat, so the cooler only sees about 10% flow until the oil reaches a preset temperature, or (2) uses an oil-to-water setup (most common with OEM coolers) so that the coolant (which warms up much more quickly than the oil) will help the oil to warm up and will keep it from being too cool when the system is at equilibrium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Well... oil is most effective between 260 - 280F...
Ummm... no. Where did you read that? You want oil to be about 220-240F.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
I have a auto trans oil cooler that I'm planning on using as the Engine oil cooler just like you were saying.
Again, bad idea, as explained above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Can anyone think of an alternate location to hook up oil lines for an oil cooler besides a sandwich filter location?
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
What do you guys think about hooking up an oil cooler from the oil line going in/right BEFORE it gets to the turbo to keep that as cool as possible... instead of right after it in the turbo where it drains back to the case???
I think FourOnTheFloor65's long reply pretty well explained why that's a bad idea as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Don't you think that once oil filled the cooler that the pressure would be the same as without it, and constant?
Unless you've found a magic cooler and magic hoses that have no pressure drop due to friction through the tubing, no, the pressure at the turbo will not be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just mean it'll take longer for the oil to reach high temperatures, but sustained load will still get it equally as hot?
Not correct. There's a reason that air-cooled engines (and even high performance water-cooled engines) have larger oil capacities than "normal" water-cooled engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
If the cooler was installed directly before it reaches the turbo it wouldn't cause any pressure issues because the oil is already being pumped up-hill towards the turbo. Therefore, once the cooler fills up, and has constant flow, it would be just the same as without it in the system.
I think someone doesn't really understand much about fluid dynamics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
I know exactly what you are trying to propose... however, FLOW(of course some things control flow) is the only factor that will impact the effect of an oil cooler.
Whether or not you are cooling the oil by "X" at a point where it is Extremeley hot, or you cool it by "X" at a point that is near ambient(not that this happens,) you are still cooling the total oil with the same NET IMPACT.

ex: Lets say "X" above is equal to 40*(ability of oil cooler)

320* - 40* = 280* (high temp with oil coolers ability subtracted)
200* - 40* = 160* (Low temp with oil coolers ability subtracted)
A cooler's heat transfer is based both on flow AND temperature differential. If flow is the same, a cooler will transfer more heat from the 320* fluid than it will from the 200* fluid because the differential temperature is much bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
OK, here's some advice. Don't waste your time with an oil cooler, it's not needed unless you are doing some endurance racing. I have an 02 WRX with an oil temp gauge and have NEVER in 8 yrs seen my oil temps get above 105C. The car was a daily driver, on the track, and now gets to stay in the garage until the nice weather.
Where were you monitoring temperature? My N/A engine, producing ~210hp, and with the factory oil-to-water cooler added, saw about 125-130C (265F) on track. I agree that an additional oil cooler is not necessary on a street car or even an auto-x car, but on track I would say it's a very good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourOnTheFloor65 View Post
Not that it would be better than the sandwich adapter but you could always run it like how they run rear end coolers on some race cars. Weld two bungs into the oil pan, get a small electric pump, and pump the oil through a cooler and back into the pan. It would be easy to use an electronic thermo switch to turn the pump on and off, so it only runs when the temp is hot enough to need it. With a setup like this you wouldn't need to worry about the pressure loss due to the adapter, lines, and cooler that you get with a regular setup, since it is on a completely different circuit from the motors oiling system. The only problems I can see are you may need to add a few more baffles to the oil pan, and use some check valves in the hoses so when its not running the oil doesn't drain out of the lines and cooler. Since this would over fill your pan and could cause the pump to not operate correctly when it starts full of air.
The bigger concern would be that you would always be at risk of pumping the oil pan dry to the point that the engine's oil pump isn't feeding sufficient oil to the bearings. That would be bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
But there is no factory cooler that runs a oil to air radiator...
Not on Subarus, but Porsche has done it for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourOnTheFloor65 View Post
There are some problems I see with running the cooler in the turbo oil feed line. Also adding a cooler here is going to create another restriction (pressure loss) in that branch of the oiling system. So you will get even less flow through it than before the cooler was installed. Which means less flow through your turbo.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourOnTheFloor65 View Post
In my opinion the best way for most cars to cool oil is to have a large finned aluminum oil pan. There is no added pressure loss, and no added complication to the system.
A large finned pan is nice, but it just can't compete with the heat transfer surface area of an actual oil cooler.
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 11:42 PM   #35
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Bugatti used to do tubes through the oil pan to help cool things. Worked a little better than just fins, but enough for the history lesson.

I have often looked at the plugs on the bottom of the oil pump and wondered if they could be used for a cooler. I guess I need to look at them more, and think about it.

-clint
Turn in Concepts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:02 AM   #36
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourOnTheFloor65 View Post
Well, before you go cutting that line or hose you should know that, that is a coolant line not an oil line. It feeds coolant either to or from the factory water to oil, oil cooler.
Well its not like I'd be cutting anything... its just a foot long tube thats clamped to rubber hose. I would have taken it off, but I ran out of time and had to go.
Either way, knowing that is good... I was doing work on the car and the motor has been hanging from the crane near by me. So, I get to see angles not normally viewed. I didn't disconnect it yet to see what it was, I was gonna do that tomorrow.
That solves that situation. I figured it was a coolant line that cooled the filter/filter bus(and contents) if it wasn't an oil line.

On to the next idea, or back to work on the current paths...
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:05 AM   #37
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by relliMmoT View Post
I was also wondering about the effects on velocity with the abrupt cooling, and the effects of the wide fluctuations of the cooling of the oil on the turbo.
1) The oil is going to slow down as it becomes more dense and gains some viscosity back as it cools, which for overheated oil it would be nice because its going to greaten its coating effect (reducing susceptibility to shear and shock) but for daily driven oil it could bring it below its optimal operating temp while your at highway speeds in January/Feb (You live in Pennsylvania, cold.. Yeah.)- which would NOT be good on a car whose turbo stays in boost at just about all highway speeds!
2) I mentioned highway speeds; what about when you stop? What about when your in residential hoods? What about when your stuck behind an Amish carriage? The flow of air and effect on cooling is going to vary greatly depending upon speed, of course. The widely varying temperature oil thats feeding directly into your turbo is uh... well you want a linear operating condition.
If you are to put it in an area of higher flow you will not see the great drop in fluid motion and viscosity from result of gaining density due to the drop in temp. You will not have wide variances in oil temps feeding your turbine. You will have a cooling effect on your whole oil system- not just whats first on the feeding tube.
It just makes sense to have the oil cooler enter the system where the flow is highest and the overall effect is felt gradually, not sporadically. Or you could do the closed loop system discussed earlier with the auxiliary pump that would only run when your oil is out of its optimum temperature, since you say that your oil gets so very hot at times (but most the time its fine, otherwise Subaru would sell a whole lot less cars).
All very good points to take into consideration... Good info!
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:26 AM   #38
STi_VIII
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 72957
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2004 EJ257 VF37 51E
w/ TypeRA Roof Vent & Lip

OMGHi2U

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Wow, the amount of bad information and faulty thinking in this thread is impressive!
+∞

I was overwhelmed like three post in, thanks for addressing several issues.
STi_VIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:36 AM   #39
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Wow, the amount of bad information and faulty thinking in this thread is impressive!
Bad information would be someone stating a fact that is completely false and defending its viability against all reason(not gathering information and the thoughts of others that have some experience or knowlege about the topic.) The information in this tread has been a compilation of ideas... and any good thinking process usually includes coming up with ideas that are later disproved. Everyone can use the information here to form thier own opinion about what is going to happen - or test it out and post FACTUAL information for everyone to see. Physics may indicate to you that one thing may happen, but until tried in the application we won't know.
Among other things, how one can come up with a comment like "...and faulty thinking..." is beyond me. Thinking can never be faulty-thats like saying you are never allowed to have an idea that isn't possible-HOW WOULD SCIENCE EVER EXIST...IT WOULDN'T if we weren't allowd to think... and test our thoughts!

I do however, thank you for all of your imput(most of which was correct)... however biased and callous(obviously some comments you made in reply were without a full thought about why they were written that way) it was-all points are welcome(minus opinions.)

Remember to take into account that some things are written to illicit responses... not because people have lack of knowledge.
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:39 AM   #40
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

Can anyone tell me what the maximum oil pressure in PSI an EJ257 will create at any point in the system?
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 12:42 AM   #41
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

[quote=I have often looked at the plugs on the bottom of the oil pump and wondered if they could be used for a cooler. I guess I need to look at them more, and think about it.[/quote]

Hmm... I'll have to take a look tomorrow. If you figure anything out definitely post it!
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 01:49 AM   #42
STi_VIII
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 72957
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2004 EJ257 VF37 51E
w/ TypeRA Roof Vent & Lip

OMGHi2U

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
...ideas that are later disproved.
^^^ Your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
...test it out and post FACTUAL information...
^^^ What you should do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Physics may indicate to you that one thing may happen, but until tried in the application we won't know.
^^^ Who the hell do you think you are? I'll give you a clue, not my physics instructor. By the way, don't you mean "hypothesis" rather than "physics"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Thinking can never be faulty-thats like saying you are never allowed to have an idea that isn't possible-HOW WOULD SCIENCE EVER EXIST...IT WOULDN'T if we weren't allowd to think... and test our thoughts!
^^^ Okay then, I think that a 2002 WRX will run better with sand in the oil! Test out my hypothesis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
...all points are welcome(minus opinions.)
^^^ Is this like "do as I say, not as I do"? Again, who the hell do you think you are, god of NASIOC?
_____________________________________________

In summary, it's altogether foolish. If you want to try it, great. When your parts fail, we aren't responsible.
STi_VIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:19 AM   #43
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Bad information would be someone stating a fact that is completely false and defending its viability against all reason(not gathering information and the thoughts of others that have some experience or knowlege about the topic.)
I'm referring to some of the things you stated as fact, not that you proposed as an idea. Things like "oil is best at 260-280F" and "adding a cooler in the supply to the turbo won't matter because the oil is already being pumped uphill." Those statements are bad information, and your understanding of fluid dynamics is full of faulty thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
I do however, thank you for all of your imput(most of which was correct)...
Please, educate me on what was incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Remember to take into account that some things are written to illicit responses... not because people have lack of knowledge.
Riiiiiiight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick7531 View Post
Can anyone tell me what the maximum oil pressure in PSI an EJ257 will create at any point in the system?
In the 105psi ballpark when cold.
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 10:26 AM   #44
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Patrick,

My temps come from the sump.
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 05:58 PM   #45
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

[quote=originally posted by maverick7531>After thinking about this concept for a day or two, I've formed a hypothesis about one of the locations.
??? If the cooler was installed directly before it reaches the turbo it wouldn't cause any pressure issues because the oil is already being pumped up-hill towards the turbo.[\quote]

Note that I am not stating this as a fact... that it is a guess as to what would happen. Taking into account the very little amout of frictional loss that would occur because the system would constantly have substance in it, I think that the total pressure loss after the cooler would be 5% at most.
Now if the system had to fill up each time... like an intercooler receiving boost... than each time this happens it has a variable amount of pressure loss due to the "on/off boost" conditions. And intercoolers have a very low %age of pressure loss. Now with an oil cooler proposed as above, with a check valve before the cooler it would be constantly full, and have a constant amount of pressure to move the oil in it already(Hydrolics.)

And different oil's have different effective ranges...
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:52 PM   #46
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Please, just stop. It's making my head hurt.

Quote:
And different oil's [sic] have different effective ranges...
OK, which engine oil is most effective at 260-280F?
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 06:54 PM   #47
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Patrick,

My temps come from the sump.
Gotcha. My temp sending unit has been moved from the oil gallery on top of the engine to the pan, so I guess at my next track day I'll find out what effect that has on the temperatures I'm reading. Won't be a completely even comparison, though, as I'm running more oil now.
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2010, 09:25 PM   #48
DrSaabaru
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 183225
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2005 Saab 9-2x Aero

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
My temp sending unit has been moved from the oil gallery on top of the engine to the pan, so I guess at my next track day I'll find out what effect that has on the temperatures I'm reading.
I'm really interested in hearing what happens! My oil temps (measured from the sump) range from 70˚C cruising on the freeway up to 90˚C in town, on up to 100˚C+ when I'm really pushing it. So far I've been assuming that (a) the actual engine oil temps are a lot higher than that, and (b) the 20˚ drop between 15mph and 70mph is just from increased airflow over the oil pan and doesn't reflect a real change in oil temps. It'll be interesting to hear if that's true.

Oh, and, I concur with everyone else: for street driving and autocross, the stock oil cooler is plenty.
DrSaabaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2010, 03:48 PM   #49
Maverick7531
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234291
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - '04 EJ257
w/ ECU & Fuel -'04 5MT

Default

Well after all of the discussion I think I have come to a conclusion as to what I am going to do. Even though I think it would be possible to run a small oil cooler in the feed line for the turbo, I think it would be best suited for my application if I ran a cooler from a custom made sandwich filter adapter.

My underlying goal was to find a way to interject an oil cooler into my stock system without really buying anything major, or having outside work done, along with being able to do it completely in house with stuff I have laying around. So....

I am taking a junk intercooler and melting it down, Casting a filter sized (in diameter) solid piece of aluminium, and machining it to correct size and shape. It really won't be much work. All I will need to do is run it on the laythe, taking the one side down about 3/4" and leaving the diameter of the threaded tube that comes from the engine stick out. I will drill that almost all the way through, and run a die over the outside of it. Then I will put it back on the machine and turn it with a chisel bit so it takes a groove out around that threaded tube. I then put 2 large holes(from the groove) at 45 degree angles at the same depth of the hole that went through the middle of the threaded tube. Then on the side of the adapter I will drill one hole to meet the threaded tube's hole, and another hole next to that, that will intersect the 2 holes that met at a 45 degree angle. Of course the last 1/2" or so of the side holes will be enlaged slightly, and then tapped to the proper NPT size. Since the adapter will be directional to feed the oil out of one hole, and in the other, my oil cooler will be connected to the 2 holes that came out the side. Then to make sure it seals with no leakes I will make a small groove around the egde that mates to the motor and insert an o-ring. The other side that the filter mates to will be smooth for the filter's gasket.

Anyone with a laythe and a drill press can easily do this. Then you can make the sandwich adapter to YOUR specs, and put as many holes as you would like, at any angle or location, at any size. All I would have to do is drill and tap holes that intersect one of the holes in the body, and I would have a location to mount an oil pressure/temp sensor.

This will be CAKE... fun too. I love machining stuff! ... and Aluminium is easy!
Maverick7531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2010, 06:51 PM   #50
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Wow. Please post pictures of the finished product when you're done.
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oil Cooler Location and Need for Oil Cooled Only Turbos dug-e-fresh Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 7 10-19-2004 06:51 PM
oil cooler location, too high? vile Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 6 07-09-2003 10:27 PM
Oil cooler/remote filter mounting locations? kidatari Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 0 03-29-2003 03:36 AM
Where are my oil cooler and trans cooler located at? Hit Man X Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 3 10-28-2002 09:40 AM
oil cooler mounting location newbie sewbie Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 12 06-09-2002 09:43 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.