Ask a tuner...

[05_wRex]

Originally Posted by Nomadgene

Is that like go go gadget?

Maybe. Haha

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[P3Auto]

He is on an AEM EMS I think, now that I look at it. They can have it setup to do it all from one table. To me it sounds like the tune they give you to get the car running and I remember seeing really low timing numbers in the base maps.

Originally Posted by Alaskan EJ20

the numbers he is posting most likely doesn't account for base timing of about 16 deg wouldn't you think?? those are probably the raw numbers of his advance table.

[P3Auto]

Knock table voltages need to be set based on how much noise the motor makes when its not knocking. Remember you are dealing basically with a microphone on the block listening for the knock. As you increase RPM the noise levels go up that is why the voltage goes up.

The numbers you set sound ok but what really has to happen is you need to graph the knock voltage during a pull with your timing set nice and low so you can be "almost" positive you have no knock. Then review the graph for any spikes. Base your knock voltages off the average noise floor of the pull. Then as you increase timing and start to knock you will see clear spikes. The idea is to have your voltage thresholds set low enough to catch real knock but high enough to ignore noise.

Originally Posted by 05_wRex

Thanks Seth. I am using a v1 aem ems. I have the stock ecu with access port that came with it, but I've gotten used to the aem now. Lol. Plus the guy told me they had issues with the stock ecu. I didn't really understand why since he didn't explain when I asked what issues, but oh well. Lol. I also asked for the power map they had for the car and got nothing, so I'm essentially doing it on my own now. Good thing I am competent. There's just not a lot of specific info on certain things like timing. The only thing I see are superficial numbers like "that guys running a billion degrees of advance, no wonder his engine blew."

That is total total timing advance. As far as I can tell. Previous logs show those numbers for total timing. The knock cal was set to pull 4.9* at 0.04 volts at redline. 4 thousandths. Not tenths of a volt. I see a recurring 0.39 volts around 5500 or so. I have some aem log files I can send over. I only have one internal log and its outdated now. lol. I set my current knock cal table with the following procedure. I set the boost to the waste gate spring and noted the knock sensor voltage. Then set the knock cal table just above those values and it hasn't pulled timing since. knock cal table is currently set to 0.19 volts at 2500 rpm up to 0.68 volts at 8000 rpm. What are your thoughts on the original knock table? And my current one?

Thanks,
Sean

[P3Auto]

Knock table voltages need to be set based on how much noise the motor makes when its not knocking. Remember you are dealing basically with a microphone on the block listening for the knock. As you increase RPM the noise levels go up that is why the voltage goes up.

The numbers you set sound ok but what really has to happen is you need to graph the knock voltage during a pull with your timing set nice and low so you can be "almost" positive you have no knock. One thing to note, too little timing can lead to a different kind of knock like effect. Then review the graph for any spikes. Base your knock voltages off the average noise floor of the pull. Then as you increase timing and start to knock you will see clear spikes. The idea is to have your voltage thresholds set low enough to catch real knock but high enough to ignore noise.

Here is an example pic from another thread about this..See the little spikes, thats usually what knock will look like above the avg noise floor.

Originally Posted by 05_wRex

Thanks Seth. I am using a v1 aem ems. I have the stock ecu with access port that came with it, but I've gotten used to the aem now. Lol. Plus the guy told me they had issues with the stock ecu. I didn't really understand why since he didn't explain when I asked what issues, but oh well. Lol. I also asked for the power map they had for the car and got nothing, so I'm essentially doing it on my own now. Good thing I am competent. There's just not a lot of specific info on certain things like timing. The only thing I see are superficial numbers like "that guys running a billion degrees of advance, no wonder his engine blew."

That is total total timing advance. As far as I can tell. Previous logs show those numbers for total timing. The knock cal was set to pull 4.9* at 0.04 volts at redline. 4 thousandths. Not tenths of a volt. I see a recurring 0.39 volts around 5500 or so. I have some aem log files I can send over. I only have one internal log and its outdated now. lol. I set my current knock cal table with the following procedure. I set the boost to the waste gate spring and noted the knock sensor voltage. Then set the knock cal table just above those values and it hasn't pulled timing since. knock cal table is currently set to 0.19 volts at 2500 rpm up to 0.68 volts at 8000 rpm. What are your thoughts on the original knock table? And my current one?

Thanks,
Sean

[05_wRex]

Thanks. I will check my fixed timing in the aem unit this evening. I believe that the numbers I posted are total timing. I looked briefly for a base timing map and couldn't find one. (I didn't look very hard as I didn't have much time.)

[P3Auto]

Some software versions had user level settings, the more advanced the setting the more tables appear. Just make sure you are logging total timing. I'm sure if everything is bolted on right and there are no other issues you should be able to go with at least 10 degrees at peak torque ramping to 15+ degrees by redline just to start. Obviously you need to log knock and see for yourself. If you really only are running 7 degrees now then your in for a world of difference when you start advancing it a bit. I have seen 10-15whp difference with just a degree of timing when your way out of spec.

Watch for gotchas that cause knock like sudden boost spikes and AFR issues. Remember smooth is the key...If you tuning in colder weather remember that being on the edge of knock in the winter will most likely knock in the summer with the hotter intake temps. So once you find some knock (if your pushing it hard) then back off 2 degrees or more. Also try to log the knock event more than once if its just a small one to make sure its able to be reproduced. Sometimes these cars will make a little noise once and it won't happen again. The idea of the knock correction system is to handle the times when there is knock and make corrections for that event. What you don't want to do is have a tune that constantly knocks in the same place every time.

Also don't assume that adding fuel (richer) is always the answer to fixing a knock event. Depending on your fuel ratings where you are at you may want to start with targets around 10.2:1 Keep it over 10.2 and below 10.9 for now until you base line some timing. Then you can try to lean it out for some more power. Unless you are running meth I would target 10.9 in general once you have timing dialed in. If you have some good 93-94 octane then 11.2-11.5 could yield some nice gains in HP.

Originally Posted by 05_wRex

Thanks. I will check my fixed timing in the aem unit this evening. I believe that the numbers I posted are total timing. I looked briefly for a base timing map and couldn't find one. (I didn't look very hard as I didn't have much time.)

[05_wRex]

Originally Posted by P3Auto

Some software versions had user level settings, the more advanced the setting the more tables appear. Just make sure you are logging total timing. I'm sure if everything is bolted on right and there are no other issues you should be able to go with at least 10 degrees at peak torque ramping to 15+ degrees by redline just to start. Obviously you need to log knock and see for yourself. If you really only are running 7 degrees now then your in for a world of difference when you start advancing it a bit. I have seen 10-15whp difference with just a degree of timing when your way out of spec.

Watch for gotchas that cause knock like sudden boost spikes and AFR issues. Remember smooth is the key...If you tuning in colder weather remember that being on the edge of knock in the winter will most likely knock in the summer with the hotter intake temps. So once you find some knock (if your pushing it hard) then back off 2 degrees or more. Also try to log the knock event more than once if its just a small one to make sure its able to be reproduced. Sometimes these cars will make a little noise once and it won't happen again. The idea of the knock correction system is to handle the times when there is knock and make corrections for that event. What you don't want to do is have a tune that constantly knocks in the same place every time.

Also don't assume that adding fuel (richer) is always the answer to fixing a knock event. Depending on your fuel ratings where you are at you may want to start with targets around 10.2:1 Keep it over 10.2 and below 10.9 for now until you base line some timing. Then you can try to lean it out for some more power. Unless you are running meth I would target 10.9 in general once you have timing dialed in. If you have some good 93-94 octane then 11.2-11.5 could yield some nice gains in HP.

Thanks a lot. Is there a particular set of correction factors you like? How much timing gets pulled, etc.? After seeing some of the stuff in this tune, it wouldn't surprise me if half the tune was off or just looked over.

On a couple early runs (when i first got the car) I saw nearly 12:1 up top when I hadn't touched a single table in the aem unit. That, along with a few other things, tells me this tune was rushed or some of the compensation tables weren't right or touched at all. When I got the car it was "de-tuned for cold weather". I didn't take enough time to go over everything when I bought the car. I had thought I wouldn't have to worry about a tune from this place. Lol. When I was checking everything out, I had assumed it was super twitchy driving around because of the cams. Turns out it was the tune. It drives amazing now...or at least a lot better than when I got it. And I'm not using a ton of fuel either.

But anyways. Lol. Do you have an email I can send a couple logs to? They'll be in aemlog format though.

Thanks,
Sean

[05_wRex]

Also, is there a consensus as to whether 93 octane with up to 10% ethanol is better or worse for our cars? As far as tuning goes that is. I don't mean its adverse effects on carburetors and all that. Ethanol has a higher octane rating that gasoline, correct? So it would make sense that it wouldn't be any lower than 93 octane. At least that's my line if thinking and why I'm asking, because I don't know for sure.

[P3Auto]

Sean,
Every tuner has his/her way sometimes of doing things. 12:1 is not bad if we are talking race gas or 93/94 and less timing or lower boost. 12:1 is also not bad up top. Some tuners richen up to redline and other lean out after the hp/tq cross over point. Again it comes down to other factors. When your just cruising these cars are setup to autotune to 14.7:1 using the front o2 sensor (which is a wideband). The AEM also has a closed loop mode with the wideband sensor option.

Anyway your on an AEM so things are different to a point and a lot of the extra stock ECU tables are not required or wanted at least.

One reason you cannot find just answers to your questions is because there are many variables. Also no offense but I tend to second guess most customers personal diagnostics. I won't even do email tunes because when I tune a car its not just about logs its about feeling, sounds, and other items that turn it more into an art form. Anyone up here in Alaska that has ridden with me on tunes knows I get into it and can sense things like a Jedi...lol just messing with you.

Anyway sure send logs to seth@p3auto.com , but like I said I can only point you in the right direction (hopefully) you really might want to spend some seat time with a local tuner. Its worth the time and money to learn from someone who has been there and done that if your trying to tune yourself. Subarus (stock ones) are not very forgiving if you make a mistake, especially with stand alone systems.

Originally Posted by 05_wRex

Thanks a lot. Is there a particular set of correction factors you like? How much timing gets pulled, etc.? After seeing some of the stuff in this tune, it wouldn't surprise me if half the tune was off or just looked over.

On a couple early runs (when i first got the car) I saw nearly 12:1 up top when I hadn't touched a single table in the aem unit. That, along with a few other things, tells me this tune was rushed or some of the compensation tables weren't right or touched at all. When I got the car it was "de-tuned for cold weather". I didn't take enough time to go over everything when I bought the car. I had thought I wouldn't have to worry about a tune from this place. Lol. When I was checking everything out, I had assumed it was super twitchy driving around because of the cams. Turns out it was the tune. It drives amazing now...or at least a lot better than when I got it. And I'm not using a ton of fuel either.

But anyways. Lol. Do you have an email I can send a couple logs to? They'll be in aemlog format though.

Thanks,
Sean

[05_wRex]

No problem. I was just looking for another pair of eyes. Thanks.

[P3Auto]

Ethanol has about 30% less energy per volume...This translates to the more E you run the more fuel you have to physically flow to make the same air fuel ratios. This is why guys running E85 install 1000+cc injectors, they need them.

Its true that large mixes improve octane ratings a lot. In fact I have a buddy in the lower 48 that tunes with E85 and he claims you basically cannot make it knock. You can reach MBT (basically max power with timing) on the stuff without knock in most cases so its definitely a win, however the trade off is sucking down gas really fast!

That being said low percentage mixes like the one your talking about are probably not big game changers. We don't have any thing like that here in Alaska so no recent experience here. I only know what I read and understand about the stuff.

I'm sure there might be some threads that speak directly to the ethanol questions around here somewhere...

Originally Posted by 05_wRex

Also, is there a consensus as to whether 93 octane with up to 10% ethanol is better or worse for our cars? As far as tuning goes that is. I don't mean its adverse effects on carburetors and all that. Ethanol has a higher octane rating that gasoline, correct? So it would make sense that it wouldn't be any lower than 93 octane. At least that's my line if thinking and why I'm asking, because I don't know for sure.

[05_wRex]

Gotcha. I didn't figure or plan on it helping at all. Just wondered if it was worse, tuning wise. Or dangerous to run.

I have access to shell utr. 116 octane unleaded. Also c16 and q16. Just wanted to get things straightened out before I try to put together a race gas map.

[05_wRex]

Also, here is a list of mods and such. It is a built engine and all that.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2433776

[VinceCarter]

Do you think it is a good idea to upgrade to my TD04 on my 06 WRX? I am mostly worried about my stock transmission.
It has 114xxx miles and the following mods on an AP OTS Stage II map:
Invidia divorced wastegate downpipe (catless)
Invidia N1 race catback
GrimmSpeed ceramic coated uppipe
STI TMIC (not installed yet)
ACT HDSS clutch

I am wondering if I should get a 16G, VF43, or VF48? Like I said above I am wondering if my transmission should hold up with these turbos? I have NEVER launched my car (owned it since 98K) nor will I. I'm a spirited driver but nothing too excessive.

Thanks in advance for your time and help/advice!!

[gs300cky]

I would personally say just port n polish it and maybe get a bigger wheel. That would cost you around 4-500 and it would be almost as quick as a vf-48 if I'm not wrong

[cuztomimportz]

Ok so I recently found I have a small powered steering leak under the car there is a rubber hose that is just deteriorating after 10 years. Then the other day I noticed that when I turn the wheel it's making the rpms jump substantially. When idling at 500rpm it can jump up to 1500 and sometimes 2500 rpms when I turn the wheel. The worst part is when I'm driving in first gear and turn the wheel because it accelerates the car forward. Any idea what might be causing this thing to jump that much. I was thinking either the switch attached to the p/s pump or possibly air in the line? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[P3Auto]

With the power steering pump typically when air is in the system the results are noise, wheel shuddering when turning, complete loss of power steering, if you look in the fluid res you will see froth or bubbles. There is a sensor on the pump that is designed to raise the rpms slightly at low rpm to give the pump some extra power. I don't think I have seen the system raise the revs that much before however.

The first thing I would do is fix the leaks. All of the hoses and the o-ring can be changed for under $100 so you should do that first. After that I would check the basics, make sure you don't have any vac leaks or other physical issues with your engine and mods.

If after all the basics are checked you could try replacing the sensor on the power steering pump or swapping it with someone else to see if it makes a difference.

Seth
P3 Import Autowerks 907-355-6655
http://www.p3auto.com

Originally Posted by cuztomimportz

Ok so I recently found I have a small powered steering leak under the car there is a rubber hose that is just deteriorating after 10 years. Then the other day I noticed that when I turn the wheel it's making the rpms jump substantially. When idling at 500rpm it can jump up to 1500 and sometimes 2500 rpms when I turn the wheel. The worst part is when I'm driving in first gear and turn the wheel because it accelerates the car forward. Any idea what might be causing this thing to jump that much. I was thinking either the switch attached to the p/s pump or possibly air in the line? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[cuztomimportz]

Originally Posted by P3Auto

With the power steering pump typically when air is in the system the results are noise, wheel shuddering when turning, complete loss of power steering, if you look in the fluid res you will see froth or bubbles. There is a sensor on the pump that is designed to raise the rpms slightly at low rpm to give the pump some extra power. I don't think I have seen the system raise the revs that much before however.

The first thing I would do is fix the leaks. All of the hoses and the o-ring can be changed for under $100 so you should do that first. After that I would check the basics, make sure you don't have any vac leaks or other physical issues with your engine and mods.

If after all the basics are checked you could try replacing the sensor on the power steering pump or swapping it with someone else to see if it makes a difference.

Seth
P3 Import Autowerks 907-355-6655
http://www.p3auto.com

Thanks Man! I wasn't sure if I should post that in here but thanks again. I have been monitoring my AP to make sure no codes have come up but nothing has. I was thinking that sensor on the ps pump was going haywire. I am definitely going to change out pretty much everything. Since I can't seem to find just the sensor without getting a new pump. Even rebuild kits don't come with the sensor.

Well I guess I'll be busy. Thanks I appreciate it.

[ST3y3]

I'm kind of new with all this but just bought an AP and before installing the intake and downpipe I wanted to ask about the fuel. The maps require 91 octane but I've noticed that the premium around here only goes up to 90. Are there stations that have 91 and if I don't have access to 91 can I even use the maps? Thanks for the input

[BackflipJeff]

Originally Posted by ST3y3

I'm kind of new with all this but just bought an AP and before installing the intake and downpipe I wanted to ask about the fuel. The maps require 91 octane but I've noticed that the premium around here only goes up to 90. Are there stations that have 91 and if I don't have access to 91 can I even use the maps? Thanks for the input

You'll be fine with the 90 don't worry about It I ran full exhaust and intake on my ap tune with no problems!

[Alaskan EJ20]

Originally Posted by ST3y3

I'm kind of new with all this but just bought an AP and before installing the intake and downpipe I wanted to ask about the fuel. The maps require 91 octane but I've noticed that the premium around here only goes up to 90. Are there stations that have 91 and if I don't have access to 91 can I even use the maps? Thanks for the input

you will knock a tad and the ecu will compensate for it, there are a number of places that can dial the timing back (tune) if you want.

[slorex8]

Originally Posted by ST3y3

I'm kind of new with all this but just bought an AP and before installing the intake and downpipe I wanted to ask about the fuel. The maps require 91 octane but I've noticed that the premium around here only goes up to 90. Are there stations that have 91 and if I don't have access to 91 can I even use the maps? Thanks for the input

I use the acn 91 stage 2 map and I haven't recorded any knock yet on logs I've made with my ap.

[Alaskan EJ20]

Originally Posted by slorex8

I use the acn 91 stage 2 map and I haven't recorded any knock yet on logs I've made with my ap.

right with those maps they are kicked back some for fuel quality

[T_woot]

My car:
2006 WRX wagon.
61K
Does not burn oil.
MODS:
Cobb AP Stage 2 Map ACN 91 OCT map
lnvidia Catted Dp
3" Exhaust to Aero turbine muffler
Cobb SF intake w/box
5 point grounding kit from paranoid fabrication
Walbro fuel pump installed
ENGINE HEALTH:
New spark plugs
oil changed 2 days ago and every 3200 miles
All aspects of 60k mile tune up done except fuel filter
Injector cleaner used from time to time
NO CEL's !
Compression and Leak down test Showed 130 all the way around on a cold engine w/3% leak down.
Coil packs look good

PROBLEM :
When I get on in 3rd at high RPM's around 5k the car suddenly sputters a bit almost feeling like what Valet mode does if you've ever tried that. This does not happen all the time and has only happened 3-4 times.
I'm told by an Etuner the car is misfiring at low RPM's and not making power like it should. But l cant diagnose much without Codes.
Valve Clearance was checked and they are good.

Car smells a bit of gas from the exhaust is my last thing to say.. Injectors maybe or fuel filter are all I can think of. But again no codes here and I'm going off the few sudden lurches l've had and what this tuner said. Any experience here is appreciated.

[Alaskan EJ20]

I'd put a wideband on it and see what the fuel is doing. also has the uppipe been changed? did you gap the plugs? Filter could be the issue...