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Old 06-01-2002, 09:52 PM   #1
Chav
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Default Any last bit of advice from the wise?

On monday I'm going to be calling Tom Coleman (if he's around and all goes well) at Ludespeed to order the folowing.

Stage II turbo kit
clutchmaster stage III clutch
j&s safeguard version 2 + dual monitor
Greddy EGT guage

I'm planning on running the 4.4 psi spring until I'm confident that everything is stable and then move up to the 6.6 psi spring. My main goal is to have a reasonable increase in power, but with a large margine of safety. Does anyone have any last bit of advice before I do this. I'm confident in my ability to tune and install this kit, I'm just wondering if there might be anything else I should look into before I make this final. Thank you!

P.S. I know I probably sound like a n00b from this post, but please be kind!

-Chav
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Old 06-02-2002, 12:31 PM   #2
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Keep money in your savings account, so when you break something, you can fix it and keep driving, instead of having a really shiny car that can't move.
Other than that, good luck!
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Old 06-02-2002, 01:33 PM   #3
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^^^ Agreed.

Also, make sure that you tune well, and tune on the side of safety. It's a given, but when peopleget anxious, bad things happen (I know of at least 2 people who blew their motors the first night they had their turbo kits in).
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Old 06-02-2002, 01:55 PM   #4
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How much does the new J&S cost? Forget it and get engine management and an old J&S.

Forget the clutch unless you drive conservatively in 1st-2nd gear like I do, otherwise you're likely to eat some gears. A tougher clutch just increases this possibility when you let your guard down for a second when shifting. Save money for a better gearbox. I am currently working up a $10k pool for a Getrag unit if you're interested in one guaranteed to be unbreakable, but some boxes can be had for about $2000 instead.

~Garrett
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Old 06-02-2002, 05:03 PM   #5
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Yea tcs007 and 8 that is very good advice. I will tune to the side of safety.

Garrett:
I picked the clutchmaster setup because of its easy engagement, but do you think this will still be too much for the tranny? I dont suppose my stock clutch will last very long with boost so I need something with more holding power. The j&s costs about 500 plus 200 for the dual monitor. I like the j&s because it will retard the timing based on boost (up to 2 degrees per pound of boost). The only thing that will be a problem will be fine tuning the fuel. Are there any ecus that you would recomend that are decently priced?

Thank you guys for ur advice.

-Chav
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Old 06-02-2002, 05:15 PM   #6
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There are lots of ECU's that are reasonably priced. The one's that come to mind are the Haltech E6K, and the Link 2. Both are in the neighborhood of $1200, just a little under double the amount your paying for the J&S. With a properly tuned ECU, you can yank quite a bit of horsepower out of the engine due to it being tuned properly.

Good luck with the install.


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Old 06-02-2002, 05:49 PM   #7
racerwad
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Lightbulb ecu's

when you add up the cost of a J&S, AFC, and some sort of EBC (which i'm sure you'll want to get some day) you are going to end up fairly close to the cost of something like a link2, which does everything and more.

the biggest plus of a link or any other computer is control. i know that the stage 2 comes with an S-AFC but if you do the math...
$275 credit for not getting an S-AFC
$495 for J&S
$460 for AVC-R
total-$1230, ~100 less than a link with a pc adaptor.

it would be nice if someone did a comparsion between the two setups. i mean, the biggest advantage that piggybacks offer is less cost. no one has every really talked about a performance per dollar margin though; ie-a piggyback setup costs 70% of a standalone setup but can do 80% of the work. for a lot of people that's more than enough. no one has really looked into how much a well tuned piggyback setup can produce effectively. i'm not arguing that a standalone offers more ultimate power potentional, but we all know that its greatest strength is the last ~20% of power left in the motor.

anyhoo, i hope that the original point of my post made sense. i agree with garrett regarding the clutch. i'd upgrade to a nicer aftermarket pressure plate to cure the shuddering problem that you may have, but don't make the decision on holding power alone. i also think that going with a standalone such as the link is a better, more cost effective solution. safe, effective power is the goal that most people are going for but i promise that you aren't going to be happy with 6psi for long good luck with your project.

andy
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Old 06-02-2002, 06:18 PM   #8
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It isn't so much harsh engagement that gets our gearboxes. Just plain torque will eat 2nd gear. Take it easy in 1st and 2nd gear and you should be fine. My gears are still in pretty good shape AFAIK.

I would say the two best things for a turbocharged RS is good engine management and a better gearbox. Those end up being the two biggest problems faced.

As for the aftermarket bits and pieces as opposed to the standalone engine management you're sacrificing safety for money. If you don't mind blowing a piston because something wasn't quite meshing at such and such a load and at such and such intake temps then go ahead with the cheaper pieces. If reliability is what you want then an aftermarket programmable ECM is in order. It isn't so much the performance aspect vs. the two set-ups as it is how safe either is for your engine. My car did last 35k miles on bits and pieces but in the end I was forced to install the Haltech else continue to eat $300 MAF sensors every month.

~Garrett
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Old 06-02-2002, 09:22 PM   #9
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After reading your posts, I'm considering a standalone ecu. I have pretty much narrowed it down to either a link 2 or a Haltech E6K, but I was wondering if I would also need to buy new injectors or if i could use a rrfpr like the cartech unit that comes with the ludespeed kit. I would much rather run new injectors, but that will add another 500 dollars to the price of the ECU route. The reason I'm only considering the link and haltech systems is because they offer the capabilites I want at the price I'm willing to pay. I looked at many others and I want laptop programability and something around 1300 dollars.

Racerwad:
You made some very good points about price with piggybacks vs. standalone along with the ability to fine tune the engine.

I have alotted 4500 dollars for this project for now. The two routes I have to choose from come close to this goal:

Original plan
Ludespeed stage II 3150
greddy egt 180
j&s safeguard 500
dual monitor 200
clutchmaster stage III 560
total 4590

Standalone
Ludespeed stage II 3150
greddy egt 180
Link 2 or Haltech E6k 1300
550cc injectors 500?
upgraded pressure plate 200?
a/f guage 100
total 5430 with injectors, pressure plate
total 4730 without injectors or pressure plate

I'm willing to spend more money to save my engine, but if I need to buy injectors this is going to put me way over my limit.

-Chav
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Old 06-02-2002, 11:45 PM   #10
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Lightbulb mathematical adjustments...

chaz-

don't forget that if you forgo the S-AFC you'll get a $275 credit which will bring the cost of the kit to $2875. it's not much, but every little bit helps. also, while the extra injectors are a great idea, there are a few things you should sit down and figure out. first, while the standalone will help you reach higher power goals, you don't need to throw down huge outputs to start. stay at your original starting boost levels. calculate the max HP that your stock RS injectors can support (safely), figure out the PR needed to create that HP, and then stay below that level of boost. as you become comfortable with tuning, get new injectors, think about the possibility of upgrading your fuel rails, revise boost levels, and keep going.

try and decide what sort of power levels you are going to be happy with. right now with the setup you may get you will not have any problems making more safe power than a stock WRX. like you mentioned yourself safety and reliablility is the primary goal.

i haven't done a whole lot of research yet regarding the need for a RRFPR with a standalone ECU. i would be under the impression that an upgraded pump and the new ECU will be fine with the stock injectors. i am probably wrong, though. good luck and keep us updated.

andy
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Old 06-03-2002, 12:13 AM   #11
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On the other hand the only downfall to standalone ECMs like the Haltech is the ability to tune them properly. While not very difficult to tune it still helps greatly to have an AWD dyno somewhere to use. I did, however, road tune my car with someone and decided it isn't too diffcult to do a rough tune that way that is plenty safe.

As far as the clutch goes I do have an ACT street clutch in my car and my tranny is intact. Uprated ACT pressure plate is $280 from Primitive. Just be careful with it and you'll be fine.

Why is that Greddy EGT so expensive? Autometer EGT is like $90 or something isn't it?

I think 550cc injectors are about $90-100 a piece. If you don't plan on exceeding 10psi (which I wouldn't suggest doing on stock compression ratios anyway) than just get 350cc or something near it. I think stock injectors are like 280cc at 80% duty (someone please correct me). Otherwise I'm not too sure about an RRFPR with programmable engine management. I think it would make fuel maps tricky wouldn't it?

With that money you saved from the cheaper EGT make sure to get a bigger fuel pump. I think Walbro's are about $100.

For A/F I'm not sure this fits your scheme but since you said you were going to settle for the J&S dual monitor this one will be fine. It also senses injector duty cycle which is very handy as well. It runs for $100 from EFI Systems.

Anything I missed?

~Garrett
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Old 06-03-2002, 12:17 AM   #12
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Andy:
I think that with the ludespeed kit the 98-99 models get the s-afc and the 00-01 models get the cartech rrfpr and voltage clamp.
Your approach to tuning is a great idea and what i had in mind. I dont plan on huge power leves as I believe this is a recipe for disaster. I want to be safe first and make more power second.

At stock fpr the injectors can only support 170 or so hp from what I've read in other threads. Instead of higher flow injectors could I just run a constant higher fuel pressure and the haltech will be happy?

Garrett:
I agree the rrfpr would make everything more complicated. Wow yea that egt guage is overpriced, I'll shop around for that one. Ludespeed's kit comes with a higher flow fuel pump so that is covered. I'm also starting to lean away from the dual monitor since the guage you showed me is half the price and I can use the LED on the box to tune the sensitivity if that is the route I end up going. Would there be any disadvantage from getting 550cc injectors now? I just dont want to have to buy another set of injectors in a couple years when I plan something else.

You guys have helped me a lot with this. Thank you!

-Chav

Last edited by Chav; 06-03-2002 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 06-03-2002, 12:57 AM   #13
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There's nothing that would make your car happier than larger injectors. Remember, the 550's are nice and big, but if you aren't planning on going all out with boost/hp numbers, you will probably be fine with 440's or 370's, which can be had for cheaper. You could even look in the Private For Sale Classifieds section and find some good deals on injectors, not sure though.

Garret, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are running the stock injectors with the Haltech, right?

Putting in the programmable ECU will be a bit more time consuming than the piggy-back units, but the payoff should be much greater (more horsepower and more safety). With the money you can deduct from the Ludespeed kit, you should actually be within your means for the new ECU w/out new injectors. Just run low boost off the bat, and upgrade later on when you have more money. For example, I am running 4 psi on my RS-T, which is fine for now. My next modification WILL be a new ECU, probably the Link 2, and thats when the boost gets turned up.

Regarding the larger fuel pump; with its higher flow (Walbro: mine is 51 psi at idle, whereas the stock pump was 34 psi) you are getting more fuel, obviously. You would not want to rely on this extra fuel for on boost comsumption, as more fuel is a necessity when more air is compressed in the cylinder. Running the RRPFR with the new ECU would be kind of strange and to be honest with you I'm not so sure how well it would work. Just tune on boost fuel delivery with the ECU, and your golden.

Oh, almost forgot, you can subtract the money for the Voltage Clamp and Cartech RRFPR from the kit as well. That should be at LEAST another $300.

Graham
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Old 06-03-2002, 01:05 AM   #14
Chav
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Graham:
How much boost can I run with the stock injectors? I'm guessing around 3-4 psi before they go static?

Good point about getting credit for the cartech.

Finally does anyone have any good suggestions on where to buy a haltech or link 2 from? Do I need to get a subaru specific system? Also where can I find 440cc injectors that will fit the 2.5rs fuel rails?

-Chav
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Old 06-03-2002, 01:12 AM   #15
Graham
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I would say 3-4 psi you should be fine, though it wouldn't hurt a bit to do some mathematical calculations to find the exact size, and I don't know them off the top of my head.

For the Link 2, the website is www.carmodifications.com

Not sure for the Haltech, just ask Garret or someone.

As for the injectors, most of the RS guys go with RC Engineering, which have proven reliable. RC can actually make you any size injector you want, you just need to let them know. I'm not sure of their website, just go to Yahoo! and type it in under the search, you should get some info. One more thing that I'm not sure of is if the RS injectors are TOP feed or SIDE feed. If you ask or do a search, you should find the answer, and this is really important when you but the injectors.


Graham
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Old 06-03-2002, 05:07 AM   #16
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Talking

do you know what's funny? this thread is what message boards should be about. information, ideas, etc. not once did anyone (starts with K, rhymes with astle) jump in with "do a search". everyone has had good ideas that build on other peoples' good ideas. i'm learning a lot, too.

FWIW, MY98 RS's have side feed, everyone else should be top fed. the website for RC is here. they should prove to be quite helpful. they have a sweet calculator to figure out injector sizes. use the formulas they provide to find out these things:

1.max HP based on stock 280cc/min injectors-this is the most power you are going to make at 100% duty cycle. figure in an 20% reduction in the equation ala RC if you'd like. whatever power figure you end up with is correspondent to the boost you can safely run on the stock injectors. that is, if the final HP number is 20% greater than stock, then the most boost you can run is 20% greater than atmosphere. BTW-this is what PR's are, but in BAR.

2.find out how big your injectors need to be to make the HP you'd like to see someday. then you'll also be able to find out what sort of boost you'll need to run.

one immediate drawback with bigger injectors is a rough idle. even with a well tuned ECU it will probably be quite difficult to get it to idle as nice as stock. this problem gets proportionately bigger as the injectors get bigger. good luck with your project.

andy
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Old 06-03-2002, 12:49 PM   #17
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Ya I love the I-club!

I called Tom today, but it says "the verison customer you have called is temporarily not accepting calls" I hope everything is ok.

I talked to RC engineering and they said they are test fitting a set of 440cc injectors in a 2.5rs sometime this week. The 440s are 89 dollars a peice

I called Extreme Motorsports in Maryland about the Haltech and they said 1300 for the things I need with a turboed car. They dont provide base maps for my car, but I can get it running.

So this is how I think this is going to go:

Ludespeed stage II minus cartech and split second voltage clamp
2850?
Haltech E6K 1300
RC engineering 4x440cc 356
A/F guage by EFI systems 100
EGT guage 100?
total 4706

Anyone know when Tom will be back?

-Chav
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Old 06-03-2002, 02:47 PM   #18
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You know what? I run stock injectors in my car and a 5psi spring and never get the injectors near 80% duty cycle (which is the danger point for injectors). Stock are fine up to about 7psi I would guess. And yes, larger injectors make for rough idle. Combine those with a lighter flywheel and your car will sound like a race car idling (idle surge). Of course you could always use throttle plate open adjustment for idle instead of the stepper motor.

You can find an AutoMeter EGT gauge at Summit. Just do a search for "EGT".

I can't remember what place I bought my Haltech from. You can get them directly from Haltech USA but they were backordered when I tried getting one from them. I got one from a different vendor who had one in stock. You can also try and save some cash and get one direct from Australia if you know someone there who'll buy it there and ship it to you. Usually get them for $1000 and shipping that way.

The $1300 quote is for the flying lead kit which is exactly what I got. The E6K is universal so we make do with what's there. It also helps to get the trim knob for $50, or you can make your own (I think it's a 10k pot, I'll have to check). The trim knob comes in very handy when tuning, but it's ugly and I think I'm going to replace it with my own pot later. You may also need a new MAP sensor. A 2-bar will suit you if you plan to keep it under 15psi. A lesser MAP also allows you to tune more load-specific bars.

A few things to check: make sure you have a 6-tooth crank trigger. CA-spec models had different triggers that may not work with the Haltech, but can be replaced. Also make sure your idle control motor is a 6-wire; we can work with that. You will also need to decide where to put a GM coolant temp sensor and an air temp sensor. I put the air temp sensor on my intercooler which is a sensible place. Get a bung welded on in the correct thread. I made a thread adapter for my coolant sensor to replace the stock one, however I no longer have the dummy coolant gauge on the dash. You will also lose the fuel vapor purge system, but so far I haven't seen any troubles with this. You'll also likely lose the ECU intercept of the AC signal, so you have to manually shut off the AC when you need the extra power.

There's so much more info. I'll post as it comes to me or I see any questions here.

~Garrett
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Old 06-03-2002, 03:07 PM   #19
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Thank you Garrett for all the information throughout this post.

What fuel pressure are you running? I'm guessing your running over 50 psi fuel pressure. I can look into getting a fpr instead of new injectors for now.

I like the Haltech E6K, but I'm leaning towards the Link 2 just because of the knock based retard and the auto tune feature. Like you said tuning it will be a problem with out a dyno, so if i can get it close with the link 2 it will get even closer on its own. I like the software that the E6K uses, but I can learn to use the link 2 software. Finally the ability of the link 2 to use all of the stock sensors is nice.

-Chav
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Old 06-03-2002, 05:29 PM   #20
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Where is everyone finding info on the Link 2? I need to research it to know what it has that the Haltech doesn't and vice versa.

Like I said way at the earlier part of the post I'd suggest the Haltech AND an old J&S Safeguard unit. There is also a DIY knock-retard function for the Haltech that is in the works. Otherwise you could always rig a speaker output in your cab with the audio input from the knock sensor. It involves using the retard function of the nitrous switch on the Haltech emulating the nitrous emissions with pinging input. No ETA on it though.

I run whatever fuel pressure that Walbro keeps up. Stock FPR, rails, injectors. No fuel delivery issues so far.

~Garrett
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Old 06-03-2002, 07:30 PM   #21
Chav
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http://www.carmodifications.com/products-index-link.htm
That is where i got the info for the link 2 and also in the faq http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=154376

J&S's tend to hold their value so even a used one is going to be around 400. The haltech costs the same as the link 2, but with the cost of a j&s added onto the haltech the link 2 is the price winner.

5psi on stock injectors + fuel pump is great. I might be able to hold off the purchase of the injectors.

-Chav

P.S. I guess Tom isnt around, maybe he went on vacation? Oh well I'll wait a week.
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Old 06-03-2002, 09:11 PM   #22
John at J&S
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Default J&S AFC mode

The new J&S unit has hardware built in to implement an AFC. When maps are develped for different size injectors, the AFC function will be enabled. This is in addition to the MAP Limiter.
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Old 06-04-2002, 02:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
I'm planning on running the 4.4 psi spring until I'm confident that everything is stable and then move up to the 6.6 psi spring. My main goal is to have a reasonable increase in power, but with a large margine of safety. Does anyone have any last bit of advice before I do this.
Chav,

Tom is a great guy and is knows alot. Plus the kit he sells has been tried and true. My advice to you is to definatly get a stand alone PEMS of some kind. I broke with the 4.4 lbs spring in my car two weeks after install. DO NOT USE THE GASKETS SUPPLIED WITH THE TIAL WASTEGATE! They are crap and don't work. Infact, don't use any gasget at all there on the in or out. Flange to flage. I had major exhaust leaks when the gaskets failed and it took lots of work to make it right. Other than that it works/worked great.

Like a retard, I chose not to have any electronics to protect against detonation. So, as a result of being cheap, I broke in a major way. Now several thousand dollars later and still waiting, I am getting it done right. TEC III, beefed up block and parallel fuel rail mod. This will and should work for a long time. I hope. My only week link when I am done is my tranny and I will have to baby that to till I have money to buy a new set of stronger gears. So, my advice still stands the same, get a good ECU to manage your boost, fuel and timing. A little now will save you alot later. Just remember, the stock pistons in our 2.5 motors are cast and weak at the ring landing. They wont take much abuse. Good luck and have fun. The rush of power is worth it all.
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Old 06-04-2002, 03:41 AM   #24
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Cool Link 2 or Link Plus (Same Thing)

Well I know AMR Mods is pretty busy with Link Stuff but I have become pretty familiar with it now. So far have tuned three cars and still working on nailing them down for the stock RS drivability. Which can be achieved with this unit, it just takes a little bit of time to get it right.

So in any case this is the setup I would go with for the cheapest setup. I am not saying the Link is the best solution, it the only one I know that is why I recommend it. For all i know the Haltech could be the better unit.

Stock Injectors if pushed can go to 5 PSI.
Walbro or some sort of high flow fuel pump
Link Plus
Parallel fuel line conversion (Ask Tom about that)
Stage 1,2, or 3 kit
DO NOT need
- S-AFC stuff
- Cartech Regulator (Link will control that)
- Split Second Voltage Clamp
- J&S is sort of optional (Good to have but Link will pull timing if it needs to)

Later on upgrade the injectors, depending on the HP you are looking for.

If anyone has questions about the Link Plus you can ask me, if I don't know the answer I can get it pretty quick.
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Old 06-04-2002, 01:46 PM   #25
Chav
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Member#: 3269
Join Date: Dec 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego
Vehicle:
2001 2.5RS Sedan STM
RSTi

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Hayscoob:
I'm sorry about your last engine, but the good thing about that is your gonna have a beast of an engine now . Ok, thanx for telling me about the gaskets I'll be sure to leave them out. In the original plan I wasnt going to go with anything serious for engine management. I was just going to use a j&s and a cartech RRFPR, but after a lot of thought and wise advice from members of this board I have decided that I'm going to keep my engine in one peice and use a Link 2 for engine management (not to say that you cant keep your engine together without a standalone ecu, but having one certainly wont hurt ). Also the price difference isnt all that great when you take into account all that a standalone ecu can do ie. boost control like avc-r, fuel + timing control...

Skywalker:
That is the plan I have in mind. I just need to talk to Tom and get everything set up. Once I get the link installed you'll be sure to see me on here asking for more advice .
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