Wagon track car

swerv_on · 03-24-2010, 02:38 AM

So I picked up a salvaged 02' OBS a few months ago and am at the very final stages of the rebuild (waiting on some plastic bits for here and there). The long term plan here is to turn it into a road legal track car. I was wondering what peoples experience with putting wagons on the track as far as behavior and competitiveness vs. equal set up sedans.

So far I'm only $2,500 in on this project and the damage was purely cosmetic with the exception of the radiator, and it is sub 60k miles so I will not be selling this car for a sedan.

I have only stripped the interior and stater working on simplifying the wiring harness but here's wish list of future modifications.
(all STi components will be from 04' model year)
GC wrx engine (maybe a hybrid or possibly an EJ257 if the money is there when the time comes)
STi trans, diff, etc.
Wilwood 6pot front 4pot back brakes
cage
STi steering rack
STi front control arms
STi lateral links
STi trailing arms
STi uprights front and rear
polyureathane bushings
wheels and tires
sedan coilovers and anti-roll bars (yet to be decided on brand or rates)

I figure this is a good starting todo list. If it were a sedan I would have the same list and I figure I'll have a bit more flxibility as far as moving weight around in the long run in a wagon than if it were a sedan. I realise that people will say to skip STi lateral links as well as other parts and go fully adgustable but like I said this is a starting list, but let me know what you all think and what peoples experience of driving wagons vs. sedans on the track are.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

rjrutzky · 03-24-2010, 06:22 AM

The biggest hurdle is tire size. I've beat the hell out of my fenders and I can only get a 245 on. I may be able to fit a 255, but I doubt it. Aero is a question too. She moves around quite a bit through T9 at road atlanta, but I think alot of other cars do too.

sniper1rfa · 03-24-2010, 09:37 AM

i concur - tire size is very limited without major work. Worse, it's the rear that's the bigger problem, so it's not a bolt on fix.

With STi laterals i can only fit 225's in the back, and even then it needs a roll to avoid rubbing. That's with a credit card's clearance between the tire and spring perch. If I pulled my fenders and moved the spring perch up further i could probably squeeze 235's.

swerv_on · 03-24-2010, 10:53 AM

I was aware of the cleance issue but I didn't know it was that bad. I had planned on one point down the road doing a wrx fender conversion but I wanted to hold off as long as I could on that but I guess that's going on the todo list then.

As far as aero dynamics at the rear what are people doing?

sniper1rfa · 03-24-2010, 07:27 PM

Before you dive in to the fender conversion: it's the rear clearance that's an issue. No bolt on solutions for that - you're going to be doing some real bodywork.

swerv_on · 03-24-2010, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniper1rfa

Before you dive in to the fender conversion: it's the rear clearance that's an issue. No bolt on solutions for that - you're going to be doing some real bodywork.

I've read several conversion threads and I can defintely do it but there's no two ways about it, it's not easy. I've built a couple one off bodies in fiber glass so I might try and make a couple one off quaters. I'll post a pic of one of my previous projects when I get home from work. But if that won't work I know some people who can help me out but I really wanted to hold off on the conversion because it is so labor intensive

rjrutzky · 03-24-2010, 08:15 PM

plus I think with the wider track STI stuff, you might be even more tire limited. Not sure on this though. Pretty much if you want some big dog 275 or larger, you need to do a widebody front and rear. It's been done quite a few times. If I can fiddle around and go from a 245 to a 255 though, I'm leaving it there. Aero is limited to a splitter and a diffuser. I haven't seen anyone using a functional rear wing on one.

I assume since you put this in motorsports, you plan on racing it. What series?

Gonz · 03-24-2010, 09:24 PM

It's a GC, but there is good wagon info in the Grocery Getter build thread.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...grocery+getter

swerv_on · 03-24-2010, 11:05 PM

If I'm right the track on an STi is 20mm wider which obviously creates problems as far as tire fitment. For aero I kind of figured that I was limited to ground effect devices but I'm hoping I can get away with that for a while but I did see in a random thread a while ago a wagon with I think a APR wing on it. How well it worked I don't know but like the flares I wanted to hold off on this. I came from Miatas (total momentum cars) so suspension is every thing to me so sorting out a decent base line suspension with off the shelf parts is my priority followed by a manual 6spd (yes it has an auto but I'm not crying over it cause the car cost 2k).

I'm an engineering student and have a full time job so I don't have the time or money to follow a series, but I make enough to build a wicked track car which is what the short term goal is. In the long run (like up to 5 years down the road) I might try and do a touring class but I have to graduate and start making money before I even think of a series so track days for now. I posted here because I feel the aptitude is way higher as far as setting up a track car than in the suspension or general where I might hear MEGAN COILOVERS ALL THE WAY!!! when I'm thinking custom rate and valved KWs or Cuscos (If I have the money at the time that is).

I said I would post a picture of my past fiberglass work so here it is. My father and I built this Lotus 11 replica together. Its based on a Lotus Elan +2 using the original back bone chassis, engine and suspension. It weighs in at 1300 pounds with 135 hp and 119 ft lbs so needless to say, it was quick. My father designed and built the space frame and I did the body. Last summer we had to sell it due to hard times. Since then it has been to pebble beach and raced (in a historic series I'm not familiar with) at Laguna Seca. I don't know where it is at now but I hope it is being driven the way we intended for it to be when we built it.

All I have to say about making those clam shells is lost foam process is a pain when making single pieces as big as these.

The start

The final product

fredtga · 03-25-2010, 02:23 PM

I had a kaminari wide kit i wanted to put on my wagon, but weight would increase alot which i not what i wanted.
I went with lexus is300 fiberglass overfenders which turned out just fine for a track car.

For sure a professional shop would have done a show quality job, but for me is good how it turned out...

The rim in the pic is a 17x9 with a +20 offset and 225/45 tire.

If you keep stockish offset and wider rim, with this overfender setup, you can fit fat tires easily... but i'd worry first to have enough power to be able to turn those wheels.
I think for a 350-400 hp car, for track (circuit), 234-245 compound R tires are more than enough... i don't know why people want to go wild with wider ones...

My 2002 wagon has a full 2007 sti drivetrain swap, so if you have any questions i may be able to help you out. I wired in also the dccd (from spiider) along with a 2004 sti cluster.

Good luck with the project.

Sir-Knight · 03-25-2010, 04:14 PM

go with 5x114 hubs... the stronger wheel bearings and larger rotors will help when things get massively hot on the track, don't forget your brake ducting.

Oldfart Racer · 03-25-2010, 10:33 PM

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1630644
Take a look here if you haven already.

swerv_on · 03-26-2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredtga

I had a kaminari wide kit i wanted to put on my wagon, but weight would increase alot which i not what i wanted.
I went with lexus is300 fiberglass overfenders which turned out just fine for a track car.

For sure a professional shop would have done a show quality job, but for me is good how it turned out...

The rim in the pic is a 17x9 with a +20 offset and 225/45 tire.

If you keep stockish offset and wider rim, with this overfender setup, you can fit fat tires easily... but i'd worry first to have enough power to be able to turn those wheels.
I think for a 350-400 hp car, for track (circuit), 234-245 compound R tires are more than enough... i don't know why people want to go wild with wider ones...

My 2002 wagon has a full 2007 sti drivetrain swap, so if you have any questions i may be able to help you out. I wired in also the dccd (from spiider) along with a 2004 sti cluster.

Good luck with the project.

Looking at that IS over fender kit you have I'm kinda thinking of just making a mold from another wrx and attach them in the same way you have depicted. But thats a good idea.

I'm currently thinking 245's not because over power because obviously it will be a while before I'm making enough to utilize them but because I'm looking for as much mechanical grip for cornering before I start playing with a new engine. I want to make it as much of a momentum car as possible via mechanical grip before I start adding power.

swerv_on · 03-26-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir-Knight

go with 5x114 hubs... the stronger wheel bearings and larger rotors will help when things get massively hot on the track, don't forget your brake ducting.

I definitely want to to the 5x114 hubs but not right off the bat. But as far as brake ducting, I've seen a couple people trying out using bilge blowers to force air into the ducting. They were saying that its not a benefit unless they are following a car where there is dead air behind it. Does anyone have any thoughts about this because I happen to have 2 4" blowers from a abandon previous project.

WgnWheel · 03-27-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldfart Racer

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1630644
Take a look here if you haven already.

Yeah, my wagon has no problem getting around the track...

Good luck with the build!

03-24-2010, 02:38 AM	#1
swerv_on Scooby Newbie Member#: 234489 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: East Bay, CA Vehicle: 2002 WRX	Wagon track car So I picked up a salvaged 02' OBS a few months ago and am at the very final stages of the rebuild (waiting on some plastic bits for here and there). The long term plan here is to turn it into a road legal track car. I was wondering what peoples experience with putting wagons on the track as far as behavior and competitiveness vs. equal set up sedans. So far I'm only $2,500 in on this project and the damage was purely cosmetic with the exception of the radiator, and it is sub 60k miles so I will not be selling this car for a sedan. I have only stripped the interior and stater working on simplifying the wiring harness but here's wish list of future modifications. (all STi components will be from 04' model year) GC wrx engine (maybe a hybrid or possibly an EJ257 if the money is there when the time comes) STi trans, diff, etc. Wilwood 6pot front 4pot back brakes cage STi steering rack STi front control arms STi lateral links STi trailing arms STi uprights front and rear polyureathane bushings wheels and tires sedan coilovers and anti-roll bars (yet to be decided on brand or rates) I figure this is a good starting todo list. If it were a sedan I would have the same list and I figure I'll have a bit more flxibility as far as moving weight around in the long run in a wagon than if it were a sedan. I realise that people will say to skip STi lateral links as well as other parts and go fully adgustable but like I said this is a starting list, but let me know what you all think and what peoples experience of driving wagons vs. sedans on the track are. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

03-24-2010, 11:05 PM	#9
swerv_on Scooby Newbie Member#: 234489 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: East Bay, CA Vehicle: 2002 WRX	If I'm right the track on an STi is 20mm wider which obviously creates problems as far as tire fitment. For aero I kind of figured that I was limited to ground effect devices but I'm hoping I can get away with that for a while but I did see in a random thread a while ago a wagon with I think a APR wing on it. How well it worked I don't know but like the flares I wanted to hold off on this. I came from Miatas (total momentum cars) so suspension is every thing to me so sorting out a decent base line suspension with off the shelf parts is my priority followed by a manual 6spd (yes it has an auto but I'm not crying over it cause the car cost 2k). I'm an engineering student and have a full time job so I don't have the time or money to follow a series, but I make enough to build a wicked track car which is what the short term goal is. In the long run (like up to 5 years down the road) I might try and do a touring class but I have to graduate and start making money before I even think of a series so track days for now. I posted here because I feel the aptitude is way higher as far as setting up a track car than in the suspension or general where I might hear MEGAN COILOVERS ALL THE WAY!!! when I'm thinking custom rate and valved KWs or Cuscos (If I have the money at the time that is). I said I would post a picture of my past fiberglass work so here it is. My father and I built this Lotus 11 replica together. Its based on a Lotus Elan +2 using the original back bone chassis, engine and suspension. It weighs in at 1300 pounds with 135 hp and 119 ft lbs so needless to say, it was quick. My father designed and built the space frame and I did the body. Last summer we had to sell it due to hard times. Since then it has been to pebble beach and raced (in a historic series I'm not familiar with) at Laguna Seca. I don't know where it is at now but I hope it is being driven the way we intended for it to be when we built it. All I have to say about making those clam shells is lost foam process is a pain when making single pieces as big as these. The start The final product Last edited by swerv_on; 03-24-2010 at 11:17 PM. Reason: photos didn't attach

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03-24-2010, 06:22 AM	#2
rjrutzky Scooby Specialist Member#: 30367 Join Date: Nov 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: nashville, tn Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT NASA SE PTB Champ	The biggest hurdle is tire size. I've beat the hell out of my fenders and I can only get a 245 on. I may be able to fit a 255, but I doubt it. Aero is a question too. She moves around quite a bit through T9 at road atlanta, but I think alot of other cars do too.

03-24-2010, 09:37 AM	#3
sniper1rfa Scooby Specialist Member#: 141040 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Designing things Vehicle: 07 2.5i wagon UGM	i concur - tire size is very limited without major work. Worse, it's the rear that's the bigger problem, so it's not a bolt on fix. With STi laterals i can only fit 225's in the back, and even then it needs a roll to avoid rubbing. That's with a credit card's clearance between the tire and spring perch. If I pulled my fenders and moved the spring perch up further i could probably squeeze 235's.

03-24-2010, 10:53 AM	#4
swerv_on Scooby Newbie Member#: 234489 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: East Bay, CA Vehicle: 2002 WRX	I was aware of the cleance issue but I didn't know it was that bad. I had planned on one point down the road doing a wrx fender conversion but I wanted to hold off as long as I could on that but I guess that's going on the todo list then. As far as aero dynamics at the rear what are people doing?

03-24-2010, 07:27 PM	#5
sniper1rfa Scooby Specialist Member#: 141040 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Designing things Vehicle: 07 2.5i wagon UGM	Before you dive in to the fender conversion: it's the rear clearance that's an issue. No bolt on solutions for that - you're going to be doing some real bodywork.

03-24-2010, 08:15 PM	#7
rjrutzky Scooby Specialist Member#: 30367 Join Date: Nov 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: nashville, tn Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT NASA SE PTB Champ	plus I think with the wider track STI stuff, you might be even more tire limited. Not sure on this though. Pretty much if you want some big dog 275 or larger, you need to do a widebody front and rear. It's been done quite a few times. If I can fiddle around and go from a 245 to a 255 though, I'm leaving it there. Aero is limited to a splitter and a diffuser. I haven't seen anyone using a functional rear wing on one. I assume since you put this in motorsports, you plan on racing it. What series?

03-24-2010, 09:24 PM	#8
Gonz Scooby Specialist Member#: 18642 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: MAIC Vehicle: 2005 Impreza WRX STi	It's a GC, but there is good wagon info in the Grocery Getter build thread. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...grocery+getter

03-25-2010, 02:23 PM	#10
fredtga Scooby Specialist Member#: 156274 Join Date: Aug 2007 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Los Angeles Vehicle: 2002 WRX Wagon WRB	I had a kaminari wide kit i wanted to put on my wagon, but weight would increase alot which i not what i wanted. I went with lexus is300 fiberglass overfenders which turned out just fine for a track car. For sure a professional shop would have done a show quality job, but for me is good how it turned out... The rim in the pic is a 17x9 with a +20 offset and 225/45 tire. If you keep stockish offset and wider rim, with this overfender setup, you can fit fat tires easily... but i'd worry first to have enough power to be able to turn those wheels. I think for a 350-400 hp car, for track (circuit), 234-245 compound R tires are more than enough... i don't know why people want to go wild with wider ones... My 2002 wagon has a full 2007 sti drivetrain swap, so if you have any questions i may be able to help you out. I wired in also the dccd (from spiider) along with a 2004 sti cluster. Good luck with the project.

03-25-2010, 04:14 PM	#11
Sir-Knight Scooby Specialist Member#: 73636 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: E. Canada Location: the 'wa, ontario, canada Vehicle: 2007 Impreza 2.5i SE newport blue pearl	go with 5x114 hubs... the stronger wheel bearings and larger rotors will help when things get massively hot on the track, don't forget your brake ducting.

03-25-2010, 10:33 PM	#12
Oldfart Racer Scooby Specialist Member#: 84064 Join Date: Mar 2005 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Hagerstown,Maryland Vehicle: 2002 WRX VF30 Wagon WRB	http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1630644 Take a look here if you haven already.