Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday February 1, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > AccessPort

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2010, 06:10 PM   #1
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default When will Cobb have OST's for 09-10 WRX's with an AEM intake

I read in another thread that Cobb was going to start making OST's for cars with aftermarket intakes, specifically the AEM version for 08+ WRX's.

I really do not feel like buying an AP then paying someone else $150 to make me a custom map.

The AEM manufacturer claims the diameter of the AEM intake pipe is the same diameter of the stock pipe. Additionally they claim air straightening fins and the long filter smooth the air out over the MAF. Due to this no tune is needed.

Larger diameter intake tubes would cause the MAF to read less air than is actually entering and lean the motor out and make more power. On stock tuned car this is relatively safe.

Seeing how AEM claims their intake retains the stock diameter this should result in the MAF still reading air correctly(Technically).

However I just can't take a manufacturers claims seriously.

Anyone have any input on this?

Thanks,
-Taz
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 06:31 PM   #2
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

I'm very surprised no one has the same question. Guess there are no many 2010 WRX's yet?
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 01:20 AM   #3
YoungGuna267
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 244899
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: lancaster pa
Vehicle:
2010 wrx
that grayish color

Default

great topic. someone should contact cobb directly and see if they can answer any IF and WHEN? questions.
YoungGuna267 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 08:29 PM   #4
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

I was hoping the resident Cobb Tuner would chime in on this thread.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 12:48 AM   #5
UncleSpud
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 144294
Join Date: Mar 2007
Vehicle:
09 WRX Sedan

Default

I'd like to know as well, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Cobb would prefer to build, sell, and support their own intake rather than support other brands? I believe that Cobb sells its own intakes and provides Stage 1 and 2 MAP support for the '02 to '07 WRX's. Why not do it for the '08 -'10 WRX's?
UncleSpud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 01:38 AM   #6
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

I have not seen a Cobb intake for the 08+ WRX's
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 04:04 PM   #7
YoungGuna267
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 244899
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: lancaster pa
Vehicle:
2010 wrx
that grayish color

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleSpud View Post
I'd like to know as well, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Cobb would prefer to build, sell, and support their own intake rather than support other brands? I believe that Cobb sells its own intakes and provides Stage 1 and 2 MAP support for the '02 to '07 WRX's. Why not do it for the '08 -'10 WRX's?
maybe cobb feels there is no need for an aftermarket intake for their flashes on the 08+ wrx. if the full potential of the stock airbox isn't reached yet, then why replace it?
YoungGuna267 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010, 12:58 PM   #8
Blue_Rex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 236954
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Vehicle:
2010 WRX Base
WRB

Default

I would imagine with the cost involved to make another set of tunes, it is not cost-effective for them, and they are leaving it to custom tuners. Custom tuners gotta put food on the table too you know!
________
Child Prilosec

Last edited by Blue_Rex; 08-23-2011 at 05:55 PM.
Blue_Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 01:33 PM   #9
papa b
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 222949
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Charles
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Prem Hatch
Dk. Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
The AEM manufacturer claims the diameter of the AEM intake pipe is the same diameter of the stock pipe. Additionally they claim air straightening fins and the long filter smooth the air out over the MAF. Due to this no tune is needed.

Larger diameter intake tubes would cause the MAF to read less air than is actually entering and lean the motor out and make more power. On stock tuned car this is relatively safe.

Seeing how AEM claims their intake retains the stock diameter this should result in the MAF still reading air correctly(Technically).

However I just can't take a manufacturers claims seriously.

Anyone have any input on this?

Thanks,
-Taz
Taz,
Just an opinion, mind you. I too was a bit skeptical with regard to AEM's claim. However I have used their products in the past on 2 VW's (MK IV GTI and an '08 R32) and have been very pleased with their performance. Being of the "Old School" (born in 1949) I needed more info so I called AEM and talked to a really nice guy who's name I've forgotten (happens when you get old). We talked about their hp and tq claims and the effect their product has on '09 WRX's. What got me was 2 questions he asked me:

1. Do you really think AEM would bring to market a product that would hurt a car?
2. Do you believe everything you read?

The story about the guy who bolted on an AEM cai, drove the car and it blew up or seized up or fell apart is pretty unlikely. It's usually the case that "the guy" is forgetting to mention a modification he had done that could have contributed to the problem.
Would a custom tune help? Of course it would. Is it necessary to have a custom tune if all you have is the AEM cai and maybe a cb exhaust? In my opinion, no. Neither VW's I mentioned earlier had a tune and they ran fine. (The MKIV had a turbo-back system and an AEM cai) I realize there are many variables to this statement but I'm only relaying my experience. I'm not very hard on cars. Different driving styles result in different variables.
Bottom line: I believe in AEM and their products. I DO NOT believe they would bring a product to market if it was going to have an adverse affect on an automobile....

I just sayin.....

Last edited by papa b; 05-16-2010 at 01:39 PM.
papa b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 02:39 PM   #10
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

If the AEM design truly does not cause the MAF sensor readings to deviate from stock calibration I could agree with most of what you said.

I do not question the ability to make more power with an AEM intake. I question their claims that their intake does not change the MAF sensors readings that are calibrated to the stock intake system.

I have plenty of tuning experience with GM cars, but I just recently bought my first AWD Turbo import.

If it is true that the AEM intake does not skew the MAF sensor readings, then you should be able to install the AEM intake with pretty much any OST map out there. If it DOES skew the MAF sensor readings, then using with any other OST maps can case a lean condition and can certainly hurt the motor.

I have decided to return the AEM intake and instead buy an Invidia DP and Cobb AP. I will run this for a while. I can always get the AEM intake again and take it to a tuner to make me a custom map for my Cobb AP.

It would be nice to see some datalogs and AFR readings of an 09-10 WRX before and after the AEM intake. I am really interested to see the difference in AFR and gps of airflow across the MAF.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #11
Blue_Rex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 236954
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Vehicle:
2010 WRX Base
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
If the AEM design truly does not cause the MAF sensor readings to deviate from stock calibration I could agree with most of what you said.

I do not question the ability to make more power with an AEM intake. I question their claims that their intake does not change the MAF sensors readings that are calibrated to the stock intake system.

I have plenty of tuning experience with GM cars, but I just recently bought my first AWD Turbo import.

If it is true that the AEM intake does not skew the MAF sensor readings, then you should be able to install the AEM intake with pretty much any OST map out there. If it DOES skew the MAF sensor readings, then using with any other OST maps can case a lean condition and can certainly hurt the motor.

I have decided to return the AEM intake and instead buy an Invidia DP and Cobb AP. I will run this for a while. I can always get the AEM intake again and take it to a tuner to make me a custom map for my Cobb AP.

It would be nice to see some datalogs and AFR readings of an 09-10 WRX before and after the AEM intake. I am really interested to see the difference in AFR and gps of airflow across the MAF.
I have quite a few years tuning time on GM too; even did my own MAFless tunes. One thing I can say with certainty; you can't touch ANYTHING in the intake on either side of the MAF without changing the readings. Even the throttle body shape and diameter can affect the MAF readings.
________
SEXYCHIKU

Last edited by Blue_Rex; 08-23-2011 at 05:59 PM.
Blue_Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 12:15 AM   #12
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Rex View Post
I have quite a few years tuning time on GM too; even did my own MAFless tunes. One thing I can say with certainty; you can't touch ANYTHING in the intake on either side of the MAF without changing the readings. Even the throttle body shape and diameter can affect the MAF readings.
Thats not true. since GM MAFs use its own housing, the diameter of the MAF never changes. As long as you leave the screen in, you can change whatever you want because the MAF will still read accurately.

In these cars the MAF is a sensor that slides down into the housing. So it is sensitive to any changes.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 01:24 AM   #13
papa b
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 222949
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Charles
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Prem Hatch
Dk. Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
If the AEM design truly does not cause the MAF sensor readings to deviate from stock calibration I could agree with most of what you said.

I do not question the ability to make more power with an AEM intake. I question their claims that their intake does not change the MAF sensors readings that are calibrated to the stock intake system.


If it is true that the AEM intake does not skew the MAF sensor readings, then you should be able to install the AEM intake with pretty much any OST map out there. If it DOES skew the MAF sensor readings, then using with any other OST maps can case a lean condition and can certainly hurt the motor.

I have decided to return the AEM intake and instead buy an Invidia DP and Cobb AP. I will run this for a while. I can always get the AEM intake again and take it to a tuner to make me a custom map for my Cobb AP.

It would be nice to see some datalogs and AFR readings of an 09-10 WRX before and after the AEM intake. I am really interested to see the difference in AFR and gps of airflow across the MAF.
Taz,

You read my mind. I plan on making some pulls with the stock airbox before I install the AEM. The gentleman I talked to at AEM was very clear about maintaining an AFR "within factory specs" which means to me that the MAF does change but remains within tolerances. I would bet I would not get him to say that if I had told him that other modifications had been made to the motor. After all, their research is based on a stock motor....
papa b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 11:13 AM   #14
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa b View Post
Taz,

You read my mind. I plan on making some pulls with the stock airbox before I install the AEM. The gentleman I talked to at AEM was very clear about maintaining an AFR "within factory specs" which means to me that the MAF does change but remains within tolerances. I would bet I would not get him to say that if I had told him that other modifications had been made to the motor. After all, their research is based on a stock motor....
I would certainly love to see these results. Since we have new WRX's there is not an abundance of information on modding them. It also seems from what I have been reading, the 09-10 WRX's respond differently to mods than the older ones.

If you can log the grams of air per second going across the MAF before the AEM and after that would be some great information as well.

I wish the intake manufacturers would display this info along with their claims that their intakes do no skew the stock AFR values.

Do you think AEM would provide me with this info if I asked? </facetious>
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 08:20 PM   #15
Blue_Rex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 236954
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Vehicle:
2010 WRX Base
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
Thats not true. since GM MAFs use its own housing, the diameter of the MAF never changes. As long as you leave the screen in, you can change whatever you want because the MAF will still read accurately.

In these cars the MAF is a sensor that slides down into the housing. So it is sensitive to any changes.
The screen does help ensure laminar airflow, but even so, changing intake parts changes the way the air flows across the small sensors in the GM MAFs. Easily proven by the lean condition found on late model Fbody cars when the intake air lid is replaced with an aftermarket part. They were really picky because of the short intake and direct shot from filter to throttle body.
________
Live sex webshows

Last edited by Blue_Rex; 08-23-2011 at 05:59 PM.
Blue_Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 09:07 PM   #16
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Just wanted to give you guys a heads up. We have discussed releasing maps for teh 2008+ WRX/STI for teh AEM intake. While the AEM is a great intake, it DOES need a tune, very much so! The intake on the stock car leans it out quite a bit and as anyone with a 2008+ vehcile knows, this is not ideal.

I don't have an ETA for these maps, but they should be available on our website in the near future. We will make an announcement when they are up!

Travis
COBB Tuning
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2010, 10:01 PM   #17
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

Thanks for the info Travis.

This confirms my suspicions that AEM's claims are misleading when it comes to the MAF readings and AFR.

While it looks like a great piece and I may install one some day, it definitely needs a tune.

+1 for Cobb. I have my AP sitting here waiting for my car to hit 1000 miles before I go stage 1.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 01:35 AM   #18
papa b
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 222949
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Charles
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Prem Hatch
Dk. Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Just wanted to give you guys a heads up. We have discussed releasing maps for teh 2008+ WRX/STI for teh AEM intake. While the AEM is a great intake, it DOES need a tune, very much so! The intake on the stock car leans it out quite a bit and as anyone with a 2008+ vehcile knows, this is not ideal.

I don't have an ETA for these maps, but they should be available on our website in the near future. We will make an announcement when they are up!

Travis
COBB Tuning
Travis,

Thank you for the information you've provided and I'm certainly not doubting you what with all the experience you must have in tuning WRX's however, until I see real numbers I'm sticking to my opinion that the AEM CAI is safe to use on an untuned '09 WRX. I will be the first to admit my mistake if the results are what you say. Just for the record, can you tell me what AFR you/COBB consider to be unsafe? The reason I ask is because I'd like to know if/when to kill the pull if we start closing in on that number. The pulls will be made on a MUSTANG dyno. Another "Just for the record"; you make the best damn downpipe currently on the market! Can't wait to get one on my car.....!
papa b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 11:41 AM   #19
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa b View Post
Travis,

Thank you for the information you've provided and I'm certainly not doubting you what with all the experience you must have in tuning WRX's however, until I see real numbers I'm sticking to my opinion that the AEM CAI is safe to use on an untuned '09 WRX. I will be the first to admit my mistake if the results are what you say. Just for the record, can you tell me what AFR you/COBB consider to be unsafe? The reason I ask is because I'd like to know if/when to kill the pull if we start closing in on that number. The pulls will be made on a MUSTANG dyno. Another "Just for the record"; you make the best damn downpipe currently on the market! Can't wait to get one on my car.....!

I do not think Travis said that you cannot safely run an AEM intake on a stock 2009 WRX.

Knowing that the WRX runs a pig rich tune from the factory, the AEM intake is plenty safe on a stock un-tuned WRX.

If I remember correctly the factory AFR is somewhere in the low 10's. If the AEM brings you closer to the 11.0 AFR mark, then you are fine. In fact that is where most of the power gains come from, the leaner AF mixture.

Coming from an extensive GM tuning background I do have a question regarding the Subaru's ECU learning ability. On a GM PCM, any item that changes the MAF's calibration will change the PCM's long term fuel trims. Then the GM PCM takes the WOT afr command table and add's and positive Long Term Fuel Trims to this value during any Wide Open Throttle event. This then negates any gains by the leaner AFR since the PCM has learned to compensate via LTFT's.

Does the Subaru ECU function the same way? If so, wouldn't aftermarket intakes only cause a temporary initial gain due to the leaner AFR? Then wouldn't the PCM will learn and correct for it via LTFT's and the car will no longer run lean at Wide Open Throttle?

Travis, do you have any input on this?
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 09:04 PM   #20
Blue_Rex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 236954
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Vehicle:
2010 WRX Base
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
I do not think Travis said that you cannot safely run an AEM intake on a stock 2009 WRX.

Knowing that the WRX runs a pig rich tune from the factory, the AEM intake is plenty safe on a stock un-tuned WRX.

If I remember correctly the factory AFR is somewhere in the low 10's. If the AEM brings you closer to the 11.0 AFR mark, then you are fine. In fact that is where most of the power gains come from, the leaner AF mixture.

Coming from an extensive GM tuning background I do have a question regarding the Subaru's ECU learning ability. On a GM PCM, any item that changes the MAF's calibration will change the PCM's long term fuel trims. Then the GM PCM takes the WOT afr command table and add's and positive Long Term Fuel Trims to this value during any Wide Open Throttle event. This then negates any gains by the leaner AFR since the PCM has learned to compensate via LTFT's.

Does the Subaru ECU function the same way? If so, wouldn't aftermarket intakes only cause a temporary initial gain due to the leaner AFR? Then wouldn't the PCM will learn and correct for it via LTFT's and the car will no longer run lean at Wide Open Throttle?

Travis, do you have any input on this?
Good question. Logging your fuel trims and hitting WOT on your Subaru should provide the answer (but maybe not....you need to know for sure if fuel trims are applied at WOT). Not the safest way to go though on GM cars, because your A/F ratio will almost definitely still be on the leaner side, which is why everyone always shot for negative LTFTs (which didn't get subtracted).
________
Effects Of Wellbutrin

Last edited by Blue_Rex; 08-23-2011 at 05:59 PM.
Blue_Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 12:36 AM   #21
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Rex View Post
Good question. Logging your fuel trims and hitting WOT on your Subaru should provide the answer (but maybe not....you need to know for sure if fuel trims are applied at WOT). Not the safest way to go though on GM cars, because your A/F ratio will almost definitely still be on the leaner side, which is why everyone always shot for negative LTFTs (which didn't get subtracted).
Agreed. I always tuned for negative LTFT's as well.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2010, 05:31 PM   #22
Tripintaz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245218
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FL
Vehicle:
2013 STI Limited

Default

The 2010 ART came out for the 2010 WRX. Now I can tune the car however I wish.
Tripintaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Could I have done dmg? ran car for about 10 seconds with oil leak Obababoy Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 7 05-08-2010 07:19 PM
When will dealerships start getting their 09 STi's? Moof General Community 10 10-06-2008 11:50 AM
Cobb will create a map for Accessport to use with Husky Ethanol blended gas zuczek Canada Region Forum 21 03-29-2005 12:47 PM
When will Carbotech have front Ultimate pads for '03 WRX? ThinkTank Brakes, Steering & Suspension 3 01-17-2003 06:51 PM
Anyone want an AEM Intake? crazyhorse South East Region Forum 0 07-11-2002 09:17 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.