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Old 05-10-2010, 01:25 PM   #1
TubeDriver
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Default need Cage build feed back...

Built up a cage for a Lemons car. This is a budget build so we kept it pretty basic but I am interested in hearing any constructive criticism. Ok, I'll start with an easy one: Harness bar located way too low. That is being fixed today. What else?












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Old 05-10-2010, 01:27 PM   #2
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looks pretty good. i'd throw another bar in the nascar bars in the doors. at least the drivers side. thats a pretty big opening IMHO
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:29 PM   #3
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Make the hoop diagonal one continuous piece.

edit: make the hoop diagonal an actual hoop diagonal.
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom@kartboy View Post
looks pretty good. i'd throw another bar in the nascar bars in the doors. at least the drivers side. thats a pretty big opening IMHO
Thanks. We plan on putting a diagonal in the middle of the square portion of the door bar.
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrannoSullyRex View Post
Make the hoop diagonal one continuous piece.

edit: make the hoop diagonal an actual hoop diagonal.

Yea, that would be nice. We probably will not do this as it would require replacing and redoing that entire section. However, the rear diagonal meets the letter of the rulebook requirements for SCCA.

We might beef up that area with a gusset or two where the rollhoop "diagonal" and harness bars meet up. We might also turn the rear diagonal into an "X" brace which will help to support the main hoop.
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:54 PM   #6
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Are all your drivers short? The harness bar and hoop look to far forward for someone 6ft.

Nascar bars are too far apart.

I think you should have asked this before you built it. LOL!
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
Are all your drivers short? The harness bar and hoop look to far forward for someone 6ft.

Nascar bars are too far apart.

I think you should have asked this before you built it. LOL!
3 out of 4 drivers are 6'+ and they fit fine. The 4th driver is 5'6" and can barely touch the pedals or see over the dash bar. Don't let the giant 25" Volvo steering wheel throw off your sense of proportion.

We had to get something in fast so we just went for it figuring that we could make some adjustments later on.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:09 PM   #8
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I'd cut out all the tubes out of the main hoop. The ones inside the hoop. Then add 1 diagonal and a proper harness bar. I'd have probably moved the main hoop farther to the back too.

What spec does "Lemons" require you to follow?
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I'd cut out all the tubes out of the main hoop. The ones inside the hoop. Then add 1 diagonal and a proper harness bar. I'd have probably moved the main hoop farther to the back too.

What spec does "Lemons" require you to follow?

At minimum, cage must include: Full front and rear hoop, appropriately braced to each other along the roofline; two drivers-side door bars (X-design is acceptable); appropriate main-hoop backstays with no bends, located as close to 45 degrees from horizontal as practical; one main-hoop diagonal; appropriate spreader plates and gussets; complete 360-degree welds at all joints. Each major load-bearing member must be formed from its own single, continuous tube. Shoulder-harness bars strongly encouraged, and virtually necessary for proper shoulder-harness mounting in some applications (the attachment point of all shoulder harnesses must be between zero and 15 degrees lower than the seat-entry point); dash bars very strongly encouraged.

o 3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120". Properly-bent, racecar-grade and -quality tubing is mandatory: no stretched or crushed bends allowed. DOM mild steel is very strongly recommended over ERW (seamed) tubing.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:24 PM   #10
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We read the rules which I believe are similar to SCCA cage requirements regarding rear hoop diagonals to mean that:

at least a single diagonal must brace the rear main hoop. That diagonal can be located inside the rear hoop or located in the rear hoop rear support legs.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:32 PM   #11
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Rule of thumb i've used for the past 20 years. Build a car for the WORST case scenario.
IE dont do a halfass job on safety equipment.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom@kartboy View Post
Rule of thumb i've used for the past 20 years. Build a car for the WORST case scenario.
IE dont do a halfass job on safety equipment.

I agree. We are running a 4L 6 nozzle AFFF fire supression system. We are redoing the harness bar so adding a single continuous diagonal within the rear hoop might be pretty easy to do.

Once we have an additional diagonal in the NASCAR door bar I believe it will be sufficient. We also have the OEM horizontal formed steel door bar left intact (although the rest of the door is gutted).


I just am not sure if the rear diagonal alone technically meets the requirements for the rear hoop diagonal?


We are doing a shakedown run this weekend at a local HPDE but have plenty of time to mod the cage as needed for the race.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubeDriver View Post
3 out of 4 drivers are 6'+ and they fit fine. The 4th driver is 5'6" and can barely touch the pedals or see over the dash bar. Don't let the giant 25" Volvo steering wheel throw off your sense of proportion.

We had to get something in fast so we just went for it figuring that we could make some adjustments later on.
Oh it's a Volvo, my bad
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I'd cut out all the tubes out of the main hoop. The ones inside the hoop. Then add 1 diagonal and a proper harness bar.
you should really do this, along with some work on the nascar bars.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
I just am not sure if the rear diagonal alone technically meets the requirements for the rear hoop diagonal?
Personally, I don't think it does. Look at page 84 and 85 of the GCR. The intent is a single unbroken bar turning the hoop essentially into two triangles.

[IMG][/IMG]

My M3 cage.


Quote:
2. Main Hoop Bracing
a. Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace. The brace
shall either be in the plane of the main hoop, or extend
from the top of one rear brace (described in 9.4.B.2.c) to
the bottom of the opposite rear brace. Automobiles with
mid mounted engines can have the lower mounting point
attach to the frame of the automobile within six inches of
the main hoop. In the case of braces in the plane of the
main hoop, the brace must span at least 50% of the width
of the main hoop, and at least 75% of the height of the
main hoop as shown in figure 12.
I might be wrong.

Last edited by MasterKwan; 05-10-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubeDriver View Post
I agree. We are running a 4L 6 nozzle AFFF fire supression system. We are redoing the harness bar so adding a single continuous diagonal within the rear hoop might be pretty easy to do.

Once we have an additional diagonal in the NASCAR door bar I believe it will be sufficient. We also have the OEM horizontal formed steel door bar left intact (although the rest of the door is gutted).


I just am not sure if the rear diagonal alone technically meets the requirements for the rear hoop diagonal?


We are doing a shakedown run this weekend at a local HPDE but have plenty of time to mod the cage as needed for the race.
6 nozzle..wow.. 2 in the cockpit? No rear fire wall?

as for the cage, what is fixing the the A-pillars together? no dash bar?..looks like you went for the nascar bars.. focusing on side impact but have not tied them together in the front
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperguy324 View Post
6 nozzle..wow.. 2 in the cockpit? No rear fire wall?

as for the cage, what is fixing the the A-pillars together? no dash bar?..looks like you went for the nascar bars.. focusing on side impact but have not tied them together in the front
Honestly 6 nozzles in my car would run, the required minimum into the engine and the rest around the driver. Fire systems are there to buy me time, not my car. A full fire crew has trouble putting out fuel fires in the engine compartment.
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
Personally, I don't think it does. Look at page 84 and 85 of the GCR. The intent is a single unbroken bar turning the hoop essentially into two triangles.

[IMG][/IMG]

My M3 cage.




I might be wrong.
Correct. A few people had to redo their diagonal at the Houston race because it was similar to the OP's. Although none of them had one end terminating on a rear stay (which is really not good).
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
Personally, I don't think it does. Look at page 84 and 85 of the GCR. The intent is a single unbroken bar turning the hoop essentially into two triangles.

[IMG][/IMG]

My M3 cage.




I might be wrong.
That A to Main looks pretty short...
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperguy324 View Post
6 nozzle..wow.. 2 in the cockpit? No rear fire wall?

as for the cage, what is fixing the the A-pillars together? no dash bar?..looks like you went for the nascar bars.. focusing on side impact but have not tied them together in the front
There is a dash bar (along the top of the dash).


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Old 05-11-2010, 10:13 AM   #21
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OK, we have made some changes.

Stage 1 (completed before this weekend)

1) We are adding a single section diagonal in the rear hoop.

2) raising the harness bar

3) adding window net attachments


Stage 2 (done before the Lemons event)

1) adding diagonals in the NASCAR door panels
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
That A to Main looks pretty short...
It's not a race car. It's a "keep me alive in case I F up at an HPDE cage" or maybe "Re-enforce the flimsey BMW cage". Still meets all the specs. If I wanted to race, I'd just need to add net hardware and door bars.
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
It's not a race car. It's a "keep me alive in case I F up at an HPDE cage" or maybe "Re-enforce the flimsey BMW cage". Still meets all the specs. If I wanted to race, I'd just need to add net hardware and door bars.
to this day I cannot understand this logic.. how about its a "yeah someone ****ed up and its what I have to live with cage" ...who would do something half ass... were you trying to save $2 by having the tube shorter.. I doubt it.

Why would anyone waste the time removing everything.. all the prep and then install a half-ass cage becuase "I only drive autocross/hpde" ...

anyways, whatever your excuse.. it looks weak at that point.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:47 PM   #24
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Haha money... Money had nothing to do with it. It's the cage that I wanted built and it meets all specs. There's nothing wrong with that cage. You just like to find fault in everything that you haven't done yourself. I understand, that it's just how you are. Every topic is the same thing "...well in the vaterland, we do it this way...".

I'm honestly surprised you haven't posted pictures of your golden cage yet...
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
Haha money... Money had nothing to do with it. It's the cage that I wanted built and it meets all specs. There's nothing wrong with that cage. You just like to find fault in everything that you haven't done yourself. I understand, that it's just how you are. Every topic is the same thing "...well in the vaterland, we do it this way...".

I'm honestly surprised you haven't posted pictures of your golden cage yet...
He will.. give it some time.. there will be a golden cage in this thread.
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