Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday October 1, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
North West Impreza Club
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Chapters > North West Impreza Club Forum -- NWIC

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #201
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Dom took his own personal time last night to evaluate where I am and it didn't spin a bearing but it did have a lot of wear so there are many theories but fact is I am at a point I need to start fresh. So save the heads and arp case hardware, h11 head studs ect. But new case and new rods, and new crank and just start over. So I am removing my top mount oil cooler for a stock water to oil cooler and removing the accusump ect. Kiss method keep it simple stupid.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Sinister redlines; 03-09-2012 at 12:19 PM.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 10:46 AM   #202
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

I am pleased to say I am happy to see my brother getting married tomorrow and I wish the best for him and I know he wants another STi bad.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 07:49 PM   #203
theotherguy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 191514
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: teh bremerton
Vehicle:
'05 FXT 6spd, 98
Fozzy lifted,'01 RS 6spd

Default

So whats the prognosis? Clearances, oiling, unknown? Bummed for you Chris...

Congrats to twigg107, hope its the continuation of a happy life.
theotherguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 07:56 PM   #204
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Hard to say really, I was plagued with a lot of engine management issues. I trust Craig and Dom in the fact the clearances where right. I honestly think all the issues with the aem where the majority of the problem. It is still under warrenty so I am sending it in to get fixed.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 12:18 AM   #205
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Here is the whole rundown. I feel this is important because I don't want people to think that we don't know how to build a motor properly. It is very obvious in my eyes that the fault wasn't in the engine build program here at MPS. We have never had a bearing fail in any of our motors, ever. This would be the first time and I think the evidence shows that this doesn't count.

First let me state that the clearances were practically perfect. I don't normally post customer's specs, but here they are anyway.

Mains #1-5 in thou
1.3
1.8
1.6
1.8
1.6

Rods 1-4
2.3
2.1
2.1
2.3

These were obviously upon assembly.

Here is the history:
Chris (Sinister) has an engine built by another non-suby shop. Prior to installation he notices that it takes an extreme amount of force with a wrench to turn the engine over without heads or spark plugs. Obviously looking back for him this was not a wise choice to put the engine in, but that is besides the point and there is no reason to dwell on that.
What is important is that the engine spun most of the bearings and almost destroyed the crank in a couple hours. Indicated oil pressure was fine and so it was assumed the only issue was the build. Later I think it becomes obvious that there were other issues that we didn't know existed.

Chris asks us to rebuild his engine for him. Since he is not wealthy and has what he believes to be a perfectly good block, he asks us to use it. We order new crank, rods, pistons for his block. We shoot the main line and it is all over the place. So a nice main line bore gets it all cleaned up. Chris alerts us that he can't afford the parts we special ordered for him and wants us to reuse his rods that he had reconditioned. We order another set of custom pistons to match the shorter rod length. New pistons show up, fresh hone for new rings and the engine is blueprinted, heads are built and a longblock is delivered to Chris. He installs engine and tows the car back to us.

This is where things go wrong:
We agree to break it in on e85 with 2200 cc injectors and NO MAP to start from. The entire map has to be created from scratch. I make the map with calculations of where fueling should be and start the engine. It actually fires right up and runs smooth for about five minutes. POS Morroso oil pan is leaking onto header wrap and a fire on his header stops the cam break in. Fire is immediately put out with zero damage to anything but the header wrap (we have extinguishers all over the shop).

Upon restart of the engine, it runs smooth for a few minutes, then starts to misfire heavily on multiple cylinders. Nothing done with the AEM will get the cylinders back. Further troubleshooting shows that the cam synch is erroring repeatedly and not allowing the engine to run properly or on four cylinders. We abandon the AEM after more troubleshooting than it was worth and get to fixing the oil leak.

other stuff in the timeline that isn't important goes here.

After much discussion and the long awaited release of COBB's Speed Density programming we decide to put the factory ecu in it. I want to put 1000cc injectors in it and continue the break in on pump gas, but Chris says no. So I attempt to build a map with the SD software and break the engine in. I have no luck whatsoever. Turns out my software install was corrupt because my beta release and the public release of the SD software were conflicting and caused massive issues with the map and the way the car ran. I was unable to get the car to idle. I call Chris and tell him he should probably take it to Surgeline while I try to figure out my issues. Tim Bailey had already tuned Mike's car and it was on almost the exact same configuration so Tim would have a better place to start. For some reason Tim didn't want to help me out with a starter map, but whatever.

PIA gets a map from Tim and puts it on Chris' car and there were some issues with his AP. His AP crashes and has to be replaced. PIA supplies him with a new AP, loads Tim's map and the car runs and idles like a dream. With that map, Chris puts 500 or so miles on it and gets it tuned at PIA by Tim. You all know the results.

So here is some important data:
I changed the oil three times in the car. Each time there was a lot of e85 in the oil.
Oil pressure was indicating higher than what I would have anticipated. This indicates a restriction as the sensor was right at the outlet of the oil pump and before all the oil cooler contraptions on this car.

Disassembling the engine found the following:
1. Cylinder one was washed down and had indication of an oil free cylinder. There were light vertical scratches around the whole cylinder from the top ring. None of them large enough to feel with your fingernail and light enough that they would disappear in different lighting. Which is obviously an indication of the issues with the engine management system.
2. All the bearings were worn heavily. The worse being the #2 and #3 mains and #3 rod. they all appeared to be starved for oil. Another indication of a restriction between the oil pressure sender and the engine.
3. The oil galleries had been modified by the first shop to build the engine. All of the sizing orifices that balance oil pressure in the engine were hogged out.


So now the diagnosis.
It is my opinion based on the facts that there were a couple of issues:
1. Poor EMS- washed down rings and diluted oil. Proven by cylinder condition and bearings.
2. Restriction- low pressure at bearings as shown by wear. I believe it to be the oil cooler used, but Chris does not agree. I am attempting to develop a flow test that will either prove or disprove that theory. It involves my lathe, a crank, an oil pump, a bucket of oil, two pressure gauges and I'm sure a big mess.
3. Block mods- unbalanced pressure to engine as shown by extra wear on #2 and #3 mains which are fed oil from the drivers side of the block while all the other mains are fed from passenger side.

The current plan of attack:
1. Ditch block. We had discussed the potential to reuse the block, but the #1 cylinder rust spot will require too much material to be removed and make the sleeves too thin to support 600whp. 400whp, sure, but not 600. Besides, this is the "last time" Chris want's to do this. We are using one of our sleeved blocks.
2. New rods.
3. New Crank
4. New bearings
5. OEM oil cooler or Seatrab oil Cooler. Unless of course my flow test shows that his core of choice flows fine.
6. Put it together, make power.

Since we now have a good map to run the engine on with e85, I believe we are still going to break it in on e85. We are however, adding lubricant to the e85 to help lubricate the cylinders during the break in period. Since the tune is solid, we shouldn't have an issue washing down the cylinder walls.

I think that covers it.
Any questions?

-Dominic
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 01:00 AM   #206
black_knight06
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 146718
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
'06 OBP STi
'07 CGM Forester XT Ltd.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Here is the whole rundown....
-Dominic
Great detailed write up Dom, thanks as always for posting this for the rest of us to read and understand.
black_knight06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 01:25 AM   #207
scraggy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 136384
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Hanford, Ca
Vehicle:
06 WRX
Dipped with custom blend

Default

I just developed 10 more wrinkles in my brain. Thanks for the post, I will keep rooting for this guy!
scraggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 03:29 AM   #208
lancelucas
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124282
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: 30000 ft
Vehicle:
04 WRX Wagon PSM
13 STI Sedan SWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I call Chris and tell him he should probably take it to Surgeline while I try to figure out my issues. Tim Bailey had already tuned Mike's car and it was on almost the exact same configuration so Tim would have a better place to start. For some reason Tim didn't want to help me out with a starter map, but whatever.
I believe this to be a miscommunication at worst. Chris contacted Tim and I and we were somewhat under the impression he wanted to "switch shops" and we felt that there was likely more than just a fresh set of eyes needed on his car or a simply quirk at hand...IE, "taking" his tuning business from you would have been slightly disingenuous until we knew more about why his car's tuning situation was so troublesome as you're obviously competent with the keyboard on a Subaru. Sign of respect, more than anything I'm not sure if he/we ever knew you were looking for a basemap (there were 5 people - you, Tim, Mike, Chris and myself - involved so lots of conversations), if so, I apologize. Tim or I are always happy to help any ProTUNER who needs assistance with mapping or otherwise; it's our paid jobs

Cheers

Lance
lancelucas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 10:18 AM   #209
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Lance,

I did not ever want to switch shops, it was a situation that I was in where I know Dom is more than capable and the engine management issues it was the best choice to have Tim look at it. I actually think Dom nailed it on the head in his explanation. Now the base map, I cannot fully answer for as I was not fully a part of that. I feel all parties did what they could to help me in this situation. I have no dis will to anyone, and that is why I still have my business with all parties involved. It boils down to this, Dom and party did what they could due to my budget constraints that arose in my life (more than they needed to). Tim wanted to help as well as he to knew my past with the car and is actually the tuner who had my car a long time ago tuned on stock block and a gt35 which I daily drove for two years. My confidence is strong with all shops and I feel my car is a strong colabiration from all parties. I will not play favorites as all are outstanding shops. I also cannot say enough about PIA as they are my good friends and ALWAYS help me when they can.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 11:25 AM   #210
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelucas

I believe this to be a miscommunication at worst. Chris contacted Tim and I and we were somewhat under the impression he wanted to "switch shops" and we felt that there was likely more than just a fresh set of eyes needed on his car or a simply quirk at hand...IE, "taking" his tuning business from you would have been slightly disingenuous until we knew more about why his car's tuning situation was so troublesome as you're obviously competent with the keyboard on a Subaru. Sign of respect, more than anything I'm not sure if he/we ever knew you were looking for a basemap (there were 5 people - you, Tim, Mike, Chris and myself - involved so lots of conversations), if so, I apologize. Tim or I are always happy to help any ProTUNER who needs assistance with mapping or otherwise; it's our paid jobs

Cheers

Lance
Its cool man. I appreciate it. Must have been a misunderstanding.
In the end, it wouldn't have helped anyway as the AP was corrupted by my bad software installation.

Last edited by Maxwell Power; 03-10-2012 at 11:37 AM.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 07:56 PM   #211
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

So we should be getting this back together in the next few weeks hopefully. Just waiting on the sleeves to be finished and then the MPS crew can work thier majic..
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 09:40 PM   #212
meebs
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3251
Join Date: Dec 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Tapps, WA
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Hatch
DGM

Default

The only question I have (sorry if it's extremely noobish) is what brand of oil and weight do you run in a monster build like that?
meebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #213
NW2TONE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 212509
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: marysville,WA
Vehicle:
unde your hood makin
your **** go faster

Default

I speek for us MPS employees and most of our local customers.
we run 5w-50 http://www.schaefferoil.com/
NW2TONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 01:10 AM   #214
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Alrighty boys, the MPS crew got the new build all back together. Actually pretty much all new internals but the engine is back at my shop ready for it to be installed. Quick basics on the build, 102mm bore sleeved case, 75 mm destroker crank and relative pistons, MPS custom rods, MPS ported and +1mm valves heads, kelford 199c cams, FP HTA gt3586 turbo, custom 2.5" up pipe and 2" primary headers, 3.5" exhuast. 2000 cc injectors, twin 044 pumps, fluidamper, moroso oil pan, oil accumulator, us much more. The last build was extremely similar and made 400whp on PIA's dyno at 15 psi boost. After break in going to retune for 28psi is the plan. But plans are to have it at WCSS and the big subie meet. Hopefully I will have my newly acquired 01 rs with a wrx swap there as well.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 02:15 AM   #215
akturbogti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 119474
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Stanley, ND
Vehicle:
05 Hummer H2
black

Default

Good luck man, been a hell of a ride it looks like.
akturbogti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 10:59 AM   #216
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Well the new engine is BACK in the car!!!! Man I am getting pretty good at taking these things in and out now a days. Wish it was for different reasons though. Should be able to light it off here in a few days.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 02:05 PM   #217
nuttnfancy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 296387
Join Date: Oct 2011
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Vehicle:
2011 STi
Silver

Default

Wow, this thread reads like a country song. I need a drink now. All fingers and toes crossed for you man.
nuttnfancy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #218
jdm05
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 180155
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: washington
Vehicle:
e85 05 wrx
PSM

Default

Good luck, hope to hear great news.
jdm05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #219
TurboRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2455
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS
96 GF8 (03 WRX)

Default

Good luck man, can't wait to see you driving it around town soon!
TurboRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 05:57 PM   #220
scooby6921
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 275789
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: bremerton wa
Vehicle:
04 wrx
black

Default

good luck man i had a built motor put in my wrx and a bolt broke and it jumped time and tore the whole thing up and that was just after break in so im back to a stock motor so i kinda know how u feal bro i put over 8 grand into mine to sucks its ben 3 times for u hope it goes well this time

Last edited by scooby6921; 05-22-2012 at 08:47 PM.
scooby6921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 11:53 AM   #221
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Ok so I need all of you guys to pray to the subie gods and do the dont freakin break on me dance. Should be running by the end of the week.
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #222
BREWPUBEAVER
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 84547
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX S-SE
Vehicle:
06, Lafawnduh
Fender rolling king

Default

sending good vibes your way buddy.


i still have these RS parts for you... hit me up
BREWPUBEAVER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 12:41 PM   #223
RexRexRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37389
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Renton Wa
Vehicle:
2003 gt35r wrx
Built not bought

Default

Any updates?
RexRexRex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #224
Sinister redlines
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120641
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Vehicle:
05 HTA3586,BB 2.5L
CGM

Default

Well, engine has been in for awhile. Just need to light it off
Sinister redlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 02:40 AM   #225
BREWPUBEAVER
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 84547
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX S-SE
Vehicle:
06, Lafawnduh
Fender rolling king

Default

i haz match
BREWPUBEAVER is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does the turbo spin up when the clutch is in or in neutral? mmiller2002 Newbies & FAQs 14 11-26-2008 08:59 AM
How do you get the jackstands under when the jack is in the way? perret318 Newbies & FAQs 25 03-12-2006 05:38 PM
okay so the MR is out, the STi is in trouble, are they gonna make the S202 for the v8 03boxer4 General Community 47 11-04-2004 04:43 PM
Well the STi is in the shop grknss New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 4 11-13-2003 01:12 PM
The cage is in the Impreza...new Tim O'Neil/Brent Hatch design. Thoughts? Sean Motorsports 21 05-03-2003 10:31 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.