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Old 05-12-2010, 01:07 AM   #1
subydude
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What's A Head Gasket?

Default Dyno Tune: EJ207 w/ stock VF30

Event: Open Source Dyno Tune
Location: Pure Tuning in Toledo Ohio
Ambient Temp: 65
Elevation: Ohio
Weather: Sunny
Track and Conditions:N/A
Tires: 255/40/17 Bridgestone RE01-R

Car: 2000, Impreza
Tuner: Keith at Pure Tuning
Dyno Info: Mustang
Transmission: 6-speed JDM Trans
Gear: 4th
Peak HP at RPM: 297 whp @ 6200 RPM
Peak Torque at RPM: 276 wtq @ 4300 RPM
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 160 whp Stock 2.0 WRX
Target Boost: 18 psi
Target AFR: 11.3
Fuel: Shell 93

Engine/Power Modifications:
Ver 7 EJ207 Spec-C RA swap (done by me)
Factory TGVless manifold
Factory 565cc Pinks
Catless TBE
K&N Typhoon intake
APS Hard Inlet
Grimmspeed 8mm Phenolic spacers
Perrin EBCS in interrupt mode
P&P Throttle Body (done by me)
Factory JDM STi TMIC

Driveline Modifications:
Factory JDM Non-DCCD 6-speed.
No name lightweight flywheel that came with the swap
Factory clutch
ACT pressure plate
Factory front and center diff
Carbonetics 1.5 way rear diff

Suspension Modifications:
All bushings replaced with Poly or Group-N
Koni 8611 shocks in ZZYZX housings
850lbs front springs/700lbs rear springs
22mm bars all around
Front and rear strut tower brace
Other Modifications:
Several hundred lbs of weight removal




I'm pretty happy with the tune. Keith had to stop at 18 psi since the IDC was 96% at the top end. Next step will be 1000cc injectors and E-85
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Last edited by subydude; 05-12-2010 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:40 AM   #2
dug-e-fresh
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Congrats... thats a nice looking power band, should be a blast to drive and rock solid reliable!

def
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:07 PM   #3
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Niiice usable power from 3200 to 7500 rpms!
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:56 PM   #4
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Very nice...finally a setup comparable to mine. Since you mention its limited to the 18psi because of injectors, it makes me want to go the 1000s and e85 as well.

I'd think 24 psi on e85 would pickup a good 50 hp, wouldn't you? Did he taper the boost because of the IDC, or was that on its own?

Awesome numbers!
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:13 PM   #5
subydude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
Very nice...finally a setup comparable to mine. Since you mention its limited to the 18psi because of injectors, it makes me want to go the 1000s and e85 as well.

I'd think 24 psi on e85 would pickup a good 50 hp, wouldn't you? Did he taper the boost because of the IDC, or was that on its own?

Awesome numbers!
Yeah IDC was 96% up top and the boost taper looks like it was set to keep the IDC below 100%. I think with E85 and 1000's it would easily pick up 50 wtq and 50 whp, especially since the turbo would probably spike to 25-26psi or higher and it wouldn't have to taper as much per the map for IDC.

He actually said if I had 750's or 800's for pump gas right now I would have been up around 310-315whp since that's all that was limiting the car.

Thanks, I'm pretty happy with it
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:24 PM   #6
dug-e-fresh
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You have all the fuel you'll ever need with the pinks... you just need to make use of them

def
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh View Post
You have all the fuel you'll ever need with the pinks... you just need to make use it

def
As much as I believe you after reading all your threads (or most of them), I'd have to believe the screen in front of me more Either way, I'm pretty happy with it right now, and it gives me something to look forward to next winter when I get the $$ to do the E85 setup.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:03 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh View Post
You have all the fuel you'll ever need with the pinks... you just need to make use of them

def
Def, what do you mean by this? Is this in reference to the mod to make your own 740s? Would that be enough on that setup for e85 and more boost?

For some reason I think I'm missing a joke in the post, but I'm new around here...


Thanks
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:10 PM   #9
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hmmm....i guess you could run it a bit richer to 11.0 instead of 11.3 and this will yield a bit more headroom with the IDCs.

Also, the amount of boost you target is midrange, so in theory you could tune for 21lbs with this setup midrange and still taper it to 15lbs at redline to prevent maxing out the injectors.

I like your graph though, the power looks really good.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:11 PM   #10
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btw, you had no issues with the 8mm phenolic spacers and the IC duct/shroud that sits around and seals the IC?

I was considering getting the spacers but i've read of people running into these issues.
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:52 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by scoobystas View Post
hmmm....i guess you could run it a bit richer to 11.0 instead of 11.3 and this will yield a bit more headroom with the IDCs.

Also, the amount of boost you target is midrange, so in theory you could tune for 21lbs with this setup midrange and still taper it to 15lbs at redline to prevent maxing out the injectors.

I like your graph though, the power looks really good.
I would think running it richer would mean increasing IDC. More fuel = more IDC. But I'm definitely not a tuner so I even take my own advice with a grain of salt


Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobystas View Post
btw, you had no issues with the 8mm phenolic spacers and the IC duct/shroud that sits around and seals the IC?

I was considering getting the spacers but i've read of people running into these issues.
I don't have a duct/shroud installed right now. I have a JDM Ver 7 shroud I'd like to install, but I need to cut it down to fit the GC hood. The 8mm spacers did raise the IC slightly. You have to remember one of the IC mounts is on the trans bell housing, while the other is on the manifold. Not to mention the intake pipe from the turbo doesn't really change location, so you've got 2 out of 4 that change height. I would think leaving the manifold bracket off would fix any fitment issues.

Or you can do what I did and just take a hammer to the skeleton of the hood to make sure nothing rubs
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
Def, what do you mean by this? Is this in reference to the mod to make your own 740s? Would that be enough on that setup for e85 and more boost?

For some reason I think I'm missing a joke in the post, but I'm new around here...


Thanks
My modded blues (same as the pinks, just they come with smaller orifaces drilled into the restrictor cap) flowed 850cc's when modded and supported 603 whp when they went static (43psi base fuel pressure).

The modded dark blues (new WRX) flow as much as 1000cc's. I just don't see why people spend so much money on injectors when 99% of those who mod have all they need sitting in their car.

When talking E85 I'd have to run the numbers... but, more importantly, how mucbh power do you wanna make on E85?

def
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh View Post
My modded blues (same as the pinks, just they come with smaller orifaces drilled into the restrictor cap) flowed 850cc's when modded and supported 603 whp when they went static (43psi base fuel pressure).

The modded dark blues (new WRX) flow as much as 1000cc's. I just don't see why people spend so much money on injectors when 99% of those who mod have all they need sitting in their car.

When talking E85 I'd have to run the numbers... but, more importantly, how mucbh power do you wanna make on E85?

def
That makes sense. To me, I'd like to eventually run something 18g or 20g sized with E85. I'm sure when it's time for me to actually purchase injectors I'll do the research and figure out what the best (and cheapest) route is. If a set of new WRX modded injectors is the best path I'll just sell the pinks and get those.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
I would think running it richer would mean increasing IDC. More fuel = more IDC. But I'm definitely not a tuner so I even take my own advice with a grain of salt
ooops your right, what was i thinking?

Btw, don't leave manifold IC bracket off! there was a guy here who's car was pulling crazy timing because it thought it heard knock. he finally installed his IC bracket and his false knock disappeared.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh View Post
My modded blues (same as the pinks, just they come with smaller orifaces drilled into the restrictor cap) flowed 850cc's when modded and supported 603 whp when they went static (43psi base fuel pressure).

The modded dark blues (new WRX) flow as much as 1000cc's. I just don't see why people spend so much money on injectors when 99% of those who mod have all they need sitting in their car.

When talking E85 I'd have to run the numbers... but, more importantly, how mucbh power do you wanna make on E85?

def
Not to steal this thread, but what kind of power would a vf30 207 make on e85 with supporting fuel? I'd think if he had some more injector, he'd make more on 93, perhaps 320?

Going to E85 gains people around 50? I'm guessing here, but does a vf30 support that much airflow at all? I'd love to have an honest 380 - 400. I know you've recommended a GT30 in other posts - is that the same as an SC61? the 61 is a popular Honda turbo, so I guess the 207's rpm capability and head flow probably help it a good bit over a 205. Would a stock location GT30 be acceptable too?
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
Going to E85 gains people around 50? I'm guessing here, but does a vf30 support that much airflow at all?
E85 is not about airflow, you add timing to get the power that's tuned out so pump gas doesn't det.

I got approx +30 on a 2.0L WRX + TD04 (from 91octane). Wanna talk about limited airflow? Yeah. E85 will see significant gains no matter what the airflow.

Also keep in mind when talking airflow that the EJ207 heads are better up top than any USDM heads. He will also get a little bit more out of most turbos than we are used to seeing:

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/news/images-EJ25/dynoG-8.jpg

that's the 207 heads with the chambers enlarged to match the bore of the EJ25, then fitted with cams that less lift than the cams fitted to the EJ25x heads. Now without cams it won't be as good, but the difference is striking. Even with stock cams, the EJ207 heads just plain flow better at high RPM than any USDM heads.

With those two factors, he might be close to 350 HP with more fuel and E85. Depends on how much is left in the turbo. I doubt it has much left though, so may only be 330-35. Doesn't a vf 30 have a smaller hotside than a vf39? 300 HP from a vf30 on pump is pretty good.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-13-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:05 PM   #17
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I understand the increased timing, but isn't there a maximum theoretical amount of horsepower able to be produced by the amount of airflow? Doesn't a turbo have a maximum amount of flow as well? I don't see how the air isn't important in that scenario, regardless of the fuel used. IF a vf30 only supports the airflow for 300hp, then that's all it can make, correct? I know for N/A applications, we used to use double the headflow for maximum potential hp. I know a forced induction app would be different, but wouldn't it close to double the cfm the turbo can flow, reduced for the heat that it creates?

I found the formula - its headflow * .257 * number of cylinders - using the vf30 flow of 435cfm? I get 447 HP. If that is crank, 20% loss would be right around 360 whp. I could live with that from a vf30...

Last edited by langsbr; 05-13-2010 at 10:12 PM. Reason: found more info
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by scoobystas View Post
ooops your right, what was i thinking?

Btw, don't leave manifold IC bracket off! there was a guy here who's car was pulling crazy timing because it thought it heard knock. he finally installed his IC bracket and his false knock disappeared.
I read the same thread about the bracket being off, but my IAM has always stayed right at 16. One IC bracket, the TB hose, the intake hose, and an engine that doesn't move (cusco motor mounts FTW) means it really isn't causing problems
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
Not to steal this thread, but what kind of power would a vf30 207 make on e85 with supporting fuel? I'd think if he had some more injector, he'd make more on 93, perhaps 320?

Going to E85 gains people around 50? I'm guessing here, but does a vf30 support that much airflow at all? I'd love to have an honest 380 - 400.
If someone has a spare set of 1000's they want to send me for "testing" purposes I'll be happy to get them in and spend the money on another tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
E85 is not about airflow, you add timing to get the power that's tuned out so pump gas doesn't det.

I got approx +30 on a 2.0L WRX + TD04 (from 91octane). Wanna talk about limited airflow? Yeah. E85 will see significant gains no matter what the airflow.

Also keep in mind when talking airflow that the EJ207 heads are better up top than any USDM heads. He will also get a little bit more out of most turbos than we are used to seeing:

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/news/images-EJ25/dynoG-8.jpg

that's the 207 heads with the chambers enlarged to match the bore of the EJ25, then fitted with cams that less lift than the cams fitted to the EJ25x heads. Now without cams it won't be as good, but the difference is striking. Even with stock cams, the EJ207 heads just plain flow better at high RPM than any USDM heads.

With those two factors, he might be close to 350 HP with more fuel and E85. Depends on how much is left in the turbo. I doubt it has much left though, so may only be 330-35. Doesn't a vf 30 have a smaller hotside than a vf39? 300 HP from a vf30 on pump is pretty good.
I think the turbo has at least another 3-4 psi available in the mid-range. Top end won't improve much over the current 15-16 psi. One thing for me to think about, the previous 280 whp tune was on a catted dp, the stock air box, and the stock BCS. It was pushing 22 psi on that setup. Now with the extra flow it ran out of injector so my guess would be with more injector it could "probably" flow enough for an honest 320 whp on a mustang.

This is still all on the stock headers, cross pipe, and up pipe. It's on my list to get the Grimmspeed setup when money allows, but if their dyno graphs are worth anything it should show a gain in the mid range and (with bigger injectors) some improved top end flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
I understand the increased timing, but isn't there a maximum theoretical amount of horsepower able to be produced by the amount of airflow? Doesn't a turbo have a maximum amount of flow as well? I don't see how the air isn't important in that scenario, regardless of the fuel used. IF a vf30 only supports the airflow for 300hp, then that's all it can make, correct? I know for N/A applications, we used to use double the headflow for maximum potential hp. I know a forced induction app would be different, but wouldn't it close to double the cfm the turbo can flow, reduced for the heat that it creates?

I found the formula - its headflow * .257 * number of cylinders - using the vf30 flow of 435cfm? I get 447 HP. If that is crank, 20% loss would be right around 360 whp. I could live with that from a vf30...
if I could get 360 whp out of a stock cammed, stock headers, basically stage 2 JDM STi on E85 I'd probably start doing backflips Now I just have to resist the E85 temptation for a few more months. Must resist the classifieds!

One thing to remember, loss is not a percentage, it's a constant. If a driveline requires 60 whp and 60 wtq to turn, that amount isn't going to change if you make more power. Example: 2.0 WRX makes 227 at the crank but 160 at the wheels. That's 67 hp loss. 2.0 WRX gets a new turbo and makes 400 crank hp, but at the wheels it should be 333 hp.

That being said, if the theoretical maximum for a vf30 turbo was 447hp I doubt getting anywhere over 350 would require more headwork than even the JDM heads have, cams, P&P everything....but it'd be hilariously fun!
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
One thing to remember, loss is not a percentage, it's a constant. If a driveline requires 60 whp and 60 wtq to turn, that amount isn't going to change if you make more power. Example: 2.0 WRX makes 227 at the crank but 160 at the wheels. That's 67 hp loss. 2.0 WRX gets a new turbo and makes 400 crank hp, but at the wheels it should be 333 hp.
STi is ~300-305 crank and shows ~215-220 WHP mustang (85-90 hp loss / ~38-40%)
2.0L WRX is ~227 crank and shows ~160-165 WHP mustang (62-67hp loss / ~38-40%)

If we believe that the crank numbers are correct, then the empirical data supports it's actually pretty close to a percentage.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-13-2010 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
STi is ~305 crank and shows ~220 WHP mustang
WRX is ~227 crank and shows ~165 WHP mustang

305 - 220 = 85
227 - 165 = 62

More losses for the STi

305 / 227 = 1.34
220 / 165 = 1.33

If we believe that the crank numbers are correct, then the empirical data supports it's actually pretty close to a percentage.
More losses for the STi due to heavier trans, brakes, more diffs, and heavier wheels.

While it is a percentage of STOCK power, once you increase the power over stock the percentage no longer works as it's not going to suddenly take more power to turn the same trans, wheels, ect

Last edited by subydude; 05-13-2010 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #22
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If someone has a spare set of 1000's they want to send me for "testing" purposes I'll be happy to get them in and spend the money on another tune
Cut the caps off your injectors. gogo.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
I understand the increased timing, but isn't there a maximum theoretical amount of horsepower able to be produced by the amount of airflow? Doesn't a turbo have a maximum amount of flow as well? I don't see how the air isn't important in that scenario, regardless of the fuel used.

Airflow is not important because if there's enough for it to run 300 HP on 93 octane, then that's the same amount needed to run 330-350 on E85. The airflow is already there to support the power. The pump gas provides an octane limitation that's independent of airflow. Absolutely the turbo has a maximum flow, however, it's safe to say that the maximum flow on E85 will be at least equal to this scenario of pump gas where the tuner may or may not have limited airflow due to IDC. There may be more air, but there's at least the same amount of air.

I'll reiterate that I gained 30 HP on a stock TD04 going E85. The turbo was already flowing everything it could on pump. It wasn't a situation where the octane allowed upping the boost/airflow because there wasn't any more to be had. I started from a lower baseline (91 octane), but he's at a higher HP level to start, there should be a little more to be had.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-13-2010 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:21 PM   #24
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More losses for the STi due to heavier trans, brakes, more diffs, and heavier wheels.

While it is a percentage of STOCK power.
Then why are Stage 2 '09 2.5L WRX (5 speed, R160, smaller brakes, smaller axles, lighter wheels) putting numbers within like 5HP of STis.

There is very likely some "static" component and some "percentage" component so that the losses decrease some as power is increased, but I don't believe it's 100% static. There is some "percentage" component there.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:28 PM   #25
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Then why are Stage 2 '09 2.5L WRX (5 speed, R160, smaller brakes, smaller axles, lighter wheels) putting numbers within like 5HP of STis.

There is very likely some "static" component and some "percentage" component so that the losses decrease some as power is increased, but I don't believe it's 100% static. There is some "percentage" component there.
The 09 WRX has open front and rear differentials and all the lighter stuff you just talked about. There was a recent test done on EVOM about lighter rotors giving more HP. They went from stock brembo rotors to light weight 2-piece rotors and "Free'd up" 13hp. Same thing applies to the 09 WRX in this case and is why it's making close to the same HP as the STi even though the crank rating is different. Either way, unless something in the driveline changes, then the amount of power it "robs" shouldn't change.

How about we agree to disagree on this These types of convo's are great in person when you have time and the ability to actually talk instead of type, but on forums they always get long and drawn out and way to "high and mighty" for their own good.
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