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Old 05-25-2010, 01:41 AM   #1
majunche66
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Default Increasing timing over 6500 rpms not making a diff..

Hey guys, i am about throw the towell, my car is a little weird when it comes to principles and rules, i do a lot of road tuning, and i have tried a lot of variations, what it came to my attention was that when i increased the timing on the upper rpms th HPs on the airboy would drop that is against any principle that i know, suggestions are welcome

here is the mod list

built bottom end,
carrillo and cp,
axis stage 5 heads,
cossworth cams 278/274
cossworth oil pump,
cossworth oil baffle,
custom fuel system
1200 inj
dual in tank walbros
aps 750 IC
magnus intake,
precision 6262
and 3 inch ex from turbo to the silencer
i think that's pretty much it
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:16 AM   #2
NSFW
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You've told us a lot about your hardware, but nothing about your tune...

How much ignition advance did you have at redline when power was at its highest?

What fuel are you running?
If you're on pump, I'm guessing you started to knock.
If you're on race gas, I'm guessing you went past MBT.
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:42 PM   #3
majunche66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
You've told us a lot about your hardware, but nothing about your tune...

How much ignition advance did you have at redline when power was at its highest?

What fuel are you running?
If you're on pump, I'm guessing you started to knock.
If you're on race gas, I'm guessing you went past MBT.

pump gas, 20-21 lbs of boost, i have a hydra ems, no knock. the most power 17-18 degrees if i give it 19 or 20 it starts to drop and afr rock solid on 11.1-2 if i lean it does not make much of a difference

Last edited by majunche66; 05-25-2010 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:57 PM   #4
john 1badSTI
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on e85@ 30psi--spinning

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^^^^this is why airboy dyno #'s don't mean schitt.Get it on a real dyno for an hour or two and play with the timing to see what it does and what it likes.Your afr's are right where I had mine when I had the std 35r when I went 10.92 on straight 93.Like I said you just need to get on a dyno for an hour or so.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:03 PM   #5
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Airboy's dyno is a very effective tool, but it can be very hard to determine power in the upper rpms, especially when things are happening so fast, and when the last one or two data cells can lead to erroneous info due to the clutch being pushed in.

Two options:

1 - higher gear runs that are run out to red-line, this gives a lot more resolution
2 - rent some time on a dyno if you do not have the right conditions to safely do the above.

I use airboy's dyno all the time. I have done hundreds and hundreds of the them, very consistent, excellent tool. But there are some things that are hard to do on the road, and the dyno is better for that. Conversely, there are some things hard to do replicate properly on the dyno. I good mixture of both is ideal.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:04 PM   #6
LittleBlueGT
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Oh, and post up some logs!
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:54 PM   #7
john 1badSTI
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on e85@ 30psi--spinning

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yes I agree somewhat I am just not a big fan of the airboy software-too many variables that are not set in stone that can affect the results.I prefer to first use the dyno and then go back over the tune on the street or at the strip since the load on the road is different than the load on the dyno.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
yes I agree somewhat I am just not a big fan of the airboy software-too many variables that are not set in stone that can affect the results.I prefer to first use the dyno and then go back over the tune on the street or at the strip since the load on the road is different than the load on the dyno.

You have your opinion and so do I. Don't let your lack of success with a tool allow you to dismiss it as garbage.

I have used it for a few years, like 2 or 3 times a day on average. (not everyday, but some days I use it 10+ times)

As long as the road is level and smooth, and you consistently use the same road, I have had extremely consistent results. My runs (99%) of the time make perfect sense when temp and wind are considered.

The only variability I get is the last few lines of a log skewing the upper rpm hp.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:44 PM   #9
john 1badSTI
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on e85@ 30psi--spinning

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no I am not doubting your success its just some that aren't as thorough as you with the variables put up all kinds of weird #'s.I on the other hand have most of my success at the dragstrip and finish the driviabilty on the road under multiple conditions.I have never used airboy since I have 2 dynos(DYNAPACK AND MUSTANG) at my disposal at shops I do work for here in central ohio,so I am not calling it garbage just stating that for most controlling the variables can be a problem.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
no I am not doubting your success its just some that aren't as thorough as you with the variables put up all kinds of weird #'s.I on the other hand have most of my success at the dragstrip and finish the driviabilty on the road under multiple conditions.I have never used airboy since I have 2 dynos(DYNAPACK AND MUSTANG) at my disposal at shops I do work for here in central ohio,so I am not calling it garbage just stating that for most controlling the variables can be a problem.
Understood, maybe then saying this:

Quote:
^^^^this is why airboy dyno #'s don't mean schitt.
...is not the best idea.

Either way, anyone reading this thread should be able to figure it out.
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:16 PM   #11
john 1badSTI
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on e85@ 30psi--spinning

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i retract that then but good airboy nos. only come from tuners who are anal about making sure all the parameters are accurate and repeatable.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:51 PM   #12
majunche66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
i retract that then but good airboy nos. only come from tuners who are anal about making sure all the parameters are accurate and repeatable.
Guys, i use airboy because i dont have a dyno nearby, and butt dyno is not reliable, and this is the only tool that actually allow you to take a look @ changes made while tuning, i read somewhere that on the airboy on the last rpms it never picked up accurately. Maybe it is that, but when you drive, you fell it a little lazy after 6500 if you increse timing.

Any other advise/tips TIA, and thank you always for ur input
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:25 PM   #13
john 1badSTI
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on e85@ 30psi--spinning

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can you post a log form the hydra so we can see what the timing and other parameters look like during a 4th gear pull to redline.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
can you post a log form the hydra so we can see what the timing and other parameters look like during a 4th gear pull to redline.

+2 now.

POST UP SOME LOGS or we cannot help!
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:22 PM   #15
arghx7
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Timing can be "too advanced" even if the engine isn't knocking. You can't fire the plugs too early. On a practical level, there's an optimum range of timing for particular operating conditions. Sometimes "good enough" is in fact good enough. Octane levels, intake temps, etc will change on a daily basis. Don't try to get the timing "perfect." You're just chasing your tail.

Now we don't have a whole lot of info to go on right now. Maybe the airboy sheet isn't giving you the best information due to sampling issues etc. If it were me I'd just put the timing back to where it was and leave it alone. Once you get to this point in tuning timing, you are not picking up much HP anyway.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:52 PM   #16
jays05
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Found this in the road dyno thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majunche66 View Post
VEHICLE DETAILS
Car: sti 04
Engine: carrillo rods cp pistons 8.5 cr
Turbo: gt35r
Intercooler: aps 750
Filter/Intake: magnus
Exhaust: 3inch titanuin (dont remember brand)
Injectors: 1200
Fuel Pump: dual walbros
Log gear: 4th
Tyre Size: 215/45/17
Delta Weight: 800, 2 around 250 and 1 200 lbs three guys on car and stereo system and misc stuff

Code:
time            AFR      rpm     tps   boost    VS       inj  timing
9:13:27 PM	13.9	3300	102	1.2	47	15.6	9
9:13:27 PM	12	3300	102	1.2	48	16	9
9:13:27 PM	11	3350	102	1.9	48	16	9
9:13:27 PM	10.6	3350	102	2.5	48	16.8	9
9:13:27 PM	11	3350	102	2.8	48	16	9
9:13:27 PM	11.1	3400	102	3.1	48	16.4	9
9:13:27 PM	11.1	3400	102	3.7	49	16.8	9
9:13:27 PM	11.5	3400	102	4.4	49	17.6	9
9:13:27 PM	11.8	3450	102	4.4	49	18	9
9:13:28 PM	12	3450	102	5	49	18.8	9
9:13:28 PM	12.5	3500	102	5.3	50	19.6	11
9:13:28 PM	12.5	3500	102	5.6	50	20	12
9:13:28 PM	12.5	3500	102	6.2	50	21.2	13
9:13:28 PM	12	3500	102	6.9	50	21.2	13
9:13:28 PM	12	3600	102	7.2	51	22.8	17
9:13:28 PM	12.3	3600	102	7.8	51	23.2	20
9:13:28 PM	12	3600	102	8.4	52	24	21
9:13:28 PM	11.8	3650	102	8.7	53	25.6	22
9:13:28 PM	12	3700	102	9.4	53	26.8	22
9:13:29 PM	11.5	3700	102	10	53	28	22
9:13:29 PM	11.5	3800	102	10.6	54	28	22
9:13:29 PM	11.5	3800	102	11.2	54	28.8	21
9:13:29 PM	11.7	3850	102	11.9	55	29.2	21
9:13:29 PM	11.7	3900	102	12.8	55	31.2	21
9:13:29 PM	11.7	3900	102	13.4	56	33.6	21
9:13:29 PM	11.8	3950	102	14.7	57	35.6	21
9:13:29 PM	11.7	4000	102	15.6	58	36.8	20
9:13:29 PM	11.5	4050	102	16.8	59	39.2	19
9:13:29 PM	11.5	4100	102	17.5	58	40.4	18
9:13:29 PM	11.5	4200	102	18.7	60	42.8	17
9:13:30 PM	11.3	4200	102	19.3	60	43.6	16
9:13:30 PM	11.3	4250	102	20.3	61	44	16
9:13:30 PM	11.3	4300	102	20.3	62	45.2	16
9:13:30 PM	11	4400	102	20.3	62	47.2	16
9:13:30 PM	11	4450	102	20.3	64	48.4	16
9:13:30 PM	11	4500	102	20.3	64	48.4	16
9:13:30 PM	10.6	4550	102	20.6	64	50	16
9:13:30 PM	10.5	4600	102	20.6	65	50.4	15
9:13:30 PM	10.1	4600	102	20.9	66	50.8	15
9:13:30 PM	9.8	4700	102	20.3	67	49.2	15
9:13:30 PM	10.1	4750	102	20.3	68	50	15
9:13:31 PM	10.3	4850	102	20.3	69	51.2	15
9:13:31 PM	10.3	4850	102	20.6	69	52.4	15
9:13:31 PM	10.8	4900	102	21.2	70	50.8	15
9:13:31 PM	11	4950	102	20.9	71	53.6	15
9:13:31 PM	10.6	5000	102	21.2	72	53.6	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5050	102	20.9	73	52.8	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5150	102	20.9	74	54	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5200	102	20.9	75	54.8	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5250	102	21.2	75	56.4	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5300	102	21.2	75	56.8	16
9:13:31 PM	11	5400	102	21.2	76	58	16
9:13:32 PM	11	5400	102	21.8	77	61.2	16
9:13:32 PM	11	5450	102	21.8	78	60	16
9:13:32 PM	11	5500	102	21.5	79	60	16
9:13:32 PM	11	5550	102	21.2	80	60.4	16
9:13:32 PM	11	5600	102	21.8	80	62	17
9:13:32 PM	11	5700	102	21.8	81	62.8	17
9:13:32 PM	11	5750	102	21.8	82	64	17
9:13:32 PM	11	5800	102	21.8	83	64.4	17
9:13:32 PM	10.6	5850	102	21.8	84	65.6	17
9:13:32 PM	10.6	5900	102	21.8	84	66.4	17
9:13:32 PM	10.6	5950	102	21.8	85	66.8	17
9:13:33 PM	10.6	6000	102	21.8	86	66.4	17
9:13:33 PM	10.6	6050	102	21.8	87	68	17
9:13:33 PM	10.8	6100	102	21.8	87	68.8	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6150	102	21.8	88	68.8	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6200	102	21.8	89	70	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6300	102	22.5	90	68	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6350	102	22.5	91	70.4	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6400	102	22.5	91	73.2	17
9:13:33 PM	11.1	6450	102	22.5	93	75.6	17
9:13:33 PM	11	6500	102	22.5	93	75.2	17
9:13:33 PM	11.1	6550	102	22.5	94	76.4	18
9:13:34 PM	11.1	6600	102	22.8	94	76.4	18
9:13:34 PM	11.1	6650	102	22.2	96	74.8	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6700	102	23.1	96	75.2	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6750	102	22.8	96	79.2	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6800	102	21.8	98	79.2	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6850	102	22.5	98	78	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6900	102	21.8	99	80	18
9:13:34 PM	11	6950	102	22.2	99	79.2	18
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Old 05-26-2010, 03:22 PM   #17
Concillian
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Cams + headwork + intake manifold is going to mean significantly higher VE a high RPM. It's not surprising that MBT would be at a much lower advance than on stock heads.

Partly could be loss of resolution with road dyno due to the slow OBDII polling rate. I bought a ZT2 wideband, which the MFR has assured me has a consistent 65Hz polling rate (about 10x what you'll get with a Tactrix / OBDII cable). I want to see if I can get that working for better resolution on road dynos. It can't log everything, but enough to use for a road dyno at least.
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Old 05-26-2010, 11:58 PM   #18
majunche66
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Thanks for posting the log jay, that is the tune that the car makes the most power, but for everything that i have put in there , either the airboy reads too low, or something in happening, and believe me guys, i have tried any possible variation and that is how i got the car to make the most power

any other advice i would appreciate

Regards


BTW i am traveling that is why it takes a little time to get to the posts
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Old 05-27-2010, 11:18 AM   #19
jays05
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I would pull some timing at peak tq and increase boost to 23-24psi.
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