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Old 03-30-2011, 12:17 AM   #301
Garrek11
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Break upgrades do help/ brake systems.

Why do you think we went from having no abs to having ABS? To say that upgrading your breaks/ breaking system wont help you stop faster I think is a load of ****. Go out and prove it and then maybe I will believe you.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:37 AM   #302
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abs is junk! Bigger brake rotors mean more leverage and more heat dissipation, in return you get a stronger brake that can withstand harder braking from higher speeds. (my 2 cents)
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:54 AM   #303
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Think you guys are missing the point OP is trying to make... you can have the best brake system possible and still not have great stopping ability with crappy tires. So the investment is much better spent in a good set of tires than bigger rotors, better pads, ect. Your tire is what gets the stopping ability directly to the ground, not the brakes.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:58 AM   #304
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yeah i got the tires part i just wanted to express my hatred toward abs. haha
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:06 AM   #305
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haha I don't like mine either, way too sensitive. I can make a much shorter stop in slick conditions with it off.
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:48 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrek11 View Post
Break upgrades do help/ brake systems.

Why do you think we went from having no abs to having ABS? To say that upgrading your breaks/ breaking system wont help you stop faster I think is a load of ****. Go out and prove it and then maybe I will believe you.
When you try to refute a point, make sure you do your research first so you dont look like an idiot. Threshold breaking without abs will stop shorter than abs. do your research, then post. The only benefit of abs is it allows the wheel to rotate while breaking, lending the vehicle maneuverability when the brakes are locked as opposed to none.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:32 AM   #307
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And what im saying is there is always room for improvments. As in they went from having no ABS to having it. So im pretty sure not too far in the future there will be upgrades to make cars stop faster. Its kind of off point however upgrading brakes does make a difference in some way or another.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:10 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrek11 View Post
Break upgrades do help/ brake systems.

Why do you think we went from having no abs to having ABS? To say that upgrading your breaks/ breaking system wont help you stop faster I think is a load of ****. Go out and prove it and then maybe I will believe you.
First, it's "brake" system.

Let's first take a car that has ABS. Drive 50 mph. Jam on the brakes. What happens? The abs kicks in as you slow the car and you stop. The fact that the ABS kicks in proves that you've just exceeded the threshold for most efficient braking.

Now, put whatever big, humungous brake system you like on the same car with the same tires and matched brake bias front to rear. Drive your car 50 mph. Jam on the brakes. What happens? The ABS kicks in and you stop. Guess what? You will NOT stop in a shorter distance. Not 1mm.

As has been talked about numerous times, bigger brakes help with overheating problems seen on track cars. Not autocross, not street.....track. If you are not boiling brake fluid, then you don't have a "need" to upgrade your brake system. Period.

What do various components in the braking system do then? First, the calipers and pads. In a typical upgraded brake system, the pads are larger and the calipers accomidate these larger pads. Since the amount of energy needed to stop the car remains the same, the heat built up is spread over a larger pad area, thus, lowering the temperature of the pad itself and the amount of heat transferred through the caliper to the fluid. Cooler fluid temp.

A great example is a 1st generation Honda CRX vs a 1st generation Honda Integra. The rotors are the same diameter. The Integra calipers and pads are significantly larger which absorbs the heat generated during braking.

Let's talk about brake lines. Stock rubber lines expand a little bit. Can you detect this pushing the brake pedal? Yes, you can. This is why many people change out the lines to stainless braided covered teflon lines. The line itself is teflon which expands far less than rubber. Can you feel the difference? Yes, you can. Will it keep your brakes cooler? No. Will they make your braking distances shorter? No.

On to the most significant braking system change you can make. Tires. If you use tires that are stickier and have more static friction during braking force, then they will reduce your braking distance. This is the biggest, most significant thing you can to to bring down your braking distance.

Brake bias. When you put on the brakes, the front brakes do the majority of the stopping because of the dynamic weight transfer to the front of the car. But in the US, all cars (by law) have an over abundance of front bias. Why? Because the government feels that if you go into a skid, they'd rather have you continue straight ahead with the fronts locked up (ignore ABS for the moment) than have the rear of the car come around you. Whatever tires are skidding, those tires will end up being out in front. Because of the excess bias, there's more performance lurking by moving some of the bias to the rear. In "real" racecars, there is often a brake proportioning valve. This allows the driver to change the bias. Why not just add more rear bias and leave it alone? Well, you can do that. When I had my racecar, that's what I did. But you need to be careful and not add too much because during rain days, the dynamic weight change is less while on a dry, warm day, it will be more. So there's always the chance that there's too much rear bias, which will induce rear lockup under threshold braking.

Ok, what's threshold braking? This is where you're on the brakes and any added braking would induce a skid. Racers practice for years to master threshold braking because they preserve their straightaway speed longer before having to slow for a corner. The stopping distance for someone successfully performing threshold braking is significantly less than the distance under ABS. What ABS gives you is only the ability to steer under full braking. It does NOT reduce your braking distance unless you're comparing to locking up the wheels and skidding to a stop.

Fluid. I'm pretty well known for disliking Super Blue. Is it because it's bad fluid? Well, no. It is equal in dry boiling point to Ford HD fluid, which was developed because ford Crown Vics and Mercury Marquis land barges would actually boil regular fluid. Both of these fluids boil at 535F. If you're going to use low grade fluid, I don't see any reason to spend a LOT of extra money on blue coloring. Go to your Ford dealer and buy some HD. If you want something that will actually perform at the track, Motul RBF600 is a good choice. It's not overly expensive and is usually available from motorcycle shops. It has a 595F boiling point and is usually not much more than Super Blue. There are other fluids that are higher in dry boiling. I've used Wilwood EXP600, which has a 635F boiling point and it works well. But something to remember.....all fluid will absorb moisture over time and the higher the dry boiling point, the quicker it absorbs moisture. This is why all track organizations say to replace fluid before every event. If you're thinking of upgrading for the street......don't. Leave ANY fluid in the car for a month and it pretty much becomes DOT 3. I go to Wal*Mart and buy the absolute cheapest fluid they have for my street cars.

Are there any other ways to reduce braking distances? Yes. Reduce the weight of your car. The force needed to slow anything is proportional to its weight. Reduce the weight of the car and you reduce your braking distance. Do you reduce the static friction of the tires by reducing weight? Yes. But your overall braking capability is improved far more than the reduction in traction, so braking distance is reduced. Look at an RC gas car. Get to 60 and stop. It'll be stopping in 50 feet. Take an Impreza and you're probably around 160 feet.

Feel free to research anything I've talked about. I wrote "the brake fluid thread" about 9 years ago. I spent 12 years as a track instructor and before that as an autocross instructor and have competed since the mid 80's in both autocross and track events. I've built a couple racecars (both prepared C) and of course, built my Factory Five Cobra from the frame up.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:41 AM   #309
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Very Very Well said.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:06 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack ffr1846 View Post
First, it's "brake" system.

<snip>
All excellent points and stated well, except the Super Blue part.
Brake fluid absorbs moisture, so after about 6 months or less it's the wet boiling point that is more important. Dry temps are nearly irrelevant.
While the Ford HD and ATE Super Blue do have the same dry temps, the wet temps of Super blue far exceed the ford HD fluid. Additionally the ford HD fluid is known to be very hydroscopic (more so than many other fluids) and so it reaches its wet rating faster than other fluids (that's a bad thing).

Ford Heavy Duty DOT 3 550(d) 290(w)
ATE Super Blue Racing 536(d) 392(w)

If you change your brake fluid every six months (or changing it before a track day), the wet temps are not as important as the dry. But since most people change every two years (if at all) the wet temps are more important. For street use brake fluids the wet temps are more important.

I liked the Valvoline SynPower brake fluid as it was similar ratings to the Super Blue, cheap, and available everywhere. But it's not sold under that name and formula anymore, now they just have their Dot 3/4 which is rated at 480(d) 311(w).
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:49 PM   #311
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What about a 4pot 2pot upgrade? I have a '04 WRX and I feel the stock brakes are too mushy. I would like to feel better pedal pressure. Also I feel out of control when the ABS kicks on, seems to me it is really sensitive?? Any ideas. This post really made me think and almost was thinking I needed big brakes. :S
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:45 AM   #312
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i picked up brakes for mine about 2 weeks ago and was vary disappointed they make more noise then bad ones
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:44 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Link2057 View Post
What about a 4pot 2pot upgrade? I have a '04 WRX and I feel the stock brakes are too mushy. I would like to feel better pedal pressure. Also I feel out of control when the ABS kicks on, seems to me it is really sensitive?? Any ideas. This post really made me think and almost was thinking I needed big brakes. :S
Change your brake fluid. Maybe new pads and SS lines too.
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:46 AM   #314
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+1 tires

this, and the "so you think you want 400whp" thread are, so far, the easiest reading, most enjoyable, common sense, under circulated information threads i've seen.

i've had my '04 WRX since it was new, put 113,xxx on the clock, and i've lurked (and learned) here, since i bought it. i joined once i started to mod, but haven't needed to start a thread . . .

. . . ever.

search, people. come on, right? folks like you have kept me safe and my wallet consistently fatter, all through a love affair with my quirky little ej205.

this is my first post . . . ever. feel special. thank you for the effort.

dave
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:24 PM   #315
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I am new to this site and to owning a Subaru but I would just like to thank you for this awesome post. It was an awesome read and i am sure I will need to read this post again.
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:44 PM   #316
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Thanks for this. I thought I was getting snowed about needing "better brakes."
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:40 AM   #317
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I want to take the time to say that, this was a very insightful post. BUT, I didn't read any other posts after the inital thread creator.

What I'm confused on is - Are you saying car A (Stock sti brembo) and car B (BBK XYZawesome), both with type 'superultramega sticky tires maximus'.. are traveling in exactly the same conditions, same direction, and same rate of travel - will stop at the same time?

It seems like the entire post is saying that a brake upgrade does nothing, no matter what (don't get me wrong, I understood your intentions fully by making the post the way it was). But shouldnt the message be something more like, "Your brake upgrade won't affect the cars performance without supporting modifications?". Or did I just read it wrong, because it's that late in my day? :P
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:07 AM   #318
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I think everyone missed the point of this thread. I do not feel this is a brake thread. I think this is a TIRE thread. Although the OP forgot to say that good tires give you a better ride too.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:23 AM   #319
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So based on what I've just read from this thread I should improve the brakes first before doing any power mods...? Makes sense to me. Well noted.
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:20 PM   #320
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Quote:
chuck Norris Brand Fluid And It Stops Way Harder."
Bahhhh Hahahahahahah Greatest Thing I Have Ever Heard
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:46 AM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrc07sti View Post
I want to take the time to say that, this was a very insightful post. BUT, I didn't read any other posts after the inital thread creator.

What I'm confused on is - Are you saying car A (Stock sti brembo) and car B (BBK XYZawesome), both with type 'superultramega sticky tires maximus'.. are traveling in exactly the same conditions, same direction, and same rate of travel - will stop at the same time?

It seems like the entire post is saying that a brake upgrade does nothing, no matter what (don't get me wrong, I understood your intentions fully by making the post the way it was). But shouldnt the message be something more like, "Your brake upgrade won't affect the cars performance without supporting modifications?". Or did I just read it wrong, because it's that late in my day? :P
I am, for the most part, in the same initial-post boat.

I also agree that it came off wrong, but in many ways, he is right. A friend of mine after a canyon run in his WRX wagon had been trying to keep up with another buddy in an STi. By the time they came to a stop, his brakes were on fire. After that, he decided that with his driving, he should probably be on Brembos. Was he right? Sort of. The bigger Brembos and vented rotors will help keep the heat and brake fade down, but won't necessarily affect his stopping distance.

The braking distance really is decided by tires. Of all the upgrades you can pay for on your car, there are only 4 spots in which you actually HAVE contact with the surface you are moving on, and that is why they are so important. Though the brakes will slow the momentum and the rolling speed of the car, if you do lock them up, your tires are your only contact spot, and their coefficient of friction with the road will ultimately decide your fate.

The one argument that I do have with the OP is that he does make it sound like any brake upgrades are useless. Now, I do agree that a BBK on a street car is pretty pointless, but if you are lighting your stock brakes on fire on the track, then you should probably be going with a setup with much better heat dissipation. However, pads with a little better initial bite, new rotors (plain, no k00kidz hella blingin drilled and slotted), and some good SS lines will help improve your braking speed, as they will make them more responsive to slow your momentum faster. But, he is correct in saying that the tires are how you actually stop.

But, that's just my $.02.
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:14 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
I am, for the most part, in the same initial-post boat.

I also agree that it came off wrong, but in many ways, he is right. A friend of mine after a canyon run in his WRX wagon had been trying to keep up with another buddy in an STi. By the time they came to a stop, his brakes were on fire. After that, he decided that with his driving, he should probably be on Brembos. Was he right? Sort of. The bigger Brembos and vented rotors will help keep the heat and brake fade down, but won't necessarily affect his stopping distance.

The braking distance really is decided by tires. Of all the upgrades you can pay for on your car, there are only 4 spots in which you actually HAVE contact with the surface you are moving on, and that is why they are so important. Though the brakes will slow the momentum and the rolling speed of the car, if you do lock them up, your tires are your only contact spot, and their coefficient of friction with the road will ultimately decide your fate.

The one argument that I do have with the OP is that he does make it sound like any brake upgrades are useless. Now, I do agree that a BBK on a street car is pretty pointless, but if you are lighting your stock brakes on fire on the track, then you should probably be going with a setup with much better heat dissipation. However, pads with a little better initial bite, new rotors (plain, no k00kidz hella blingin drilled and slotted), and some good SS lines will help improve your braking speed, as they will make them more responsive to slow your momentum faster. But, he is correct in saying that the tires are how you actually stop.

But, that's just my $.02.
Cross drilled have their purpose (preventing a film of water) but most race teams stick to a slotted due to potential cracking with cross drilled.

Porsche GT3 RSR front rotor
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:21 PM   #323
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Default boiled my brake fluid at first track day

After my second 20 min. track day session my brakes went to the floor and needed to be pumped just to stop in the paddock. I had a lot of fade on the last lap but had no idea this would happen to a 2010 sti se with only upgraded power (running 380 whp on DD dyno tune at the time) and brake pads. Im hoping hi temp brake fluid will prevent this. I could probably replicate this abuse on a canyon road. While i agree with the original post, i do feel brakes can be an issue with these 3400 lb. cars.

Note: I'm on stock tires with 10k miles, on a small 1.2 mi. track, and braking early and saving brakes when in lap traffic.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:46 AM   #324
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Cross drilled have their purpose (preventing a film of water) but most race teams stick to a slotted due to potential cracking with cross drilled.
Fair enough. Still, it is irritating how most people automatically assume that if they find random drilled and slotted rotors, they will be able to stop faster. This is not true at all. That, and 90% of the people running drilled rotors will never have a use for them, other than to make them replace their pads and rotors faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sholden View Post
After my second 20 min. track day session my brakes went to the floor and needed to be pumped just to stop in the paddock. I had a lot of fade on the last lap but had no idea this would happen to a 2010 sti se with only upgraded power (running 380 whp on DD dyno tune at the time) and brake pads. Im hoping hi temp brake fluid will prevent this. I could probably replicate this abuse on a canyon road. While i agree with the original post, i do feel brakes can be an issue with these 3400 lb. cars.

Note: I'm on stock tires with 10k miles, on a small 1.2 mi. track, and braking early and saving brakes when in lap traffic.
This is a good case in which it might actually help you to have some slotted rotors to help vent away some of those brake gasses. The higher temp fluid would also help (I would recommend ATE Blue, but any good high-temp fluid would work well). As for upgraded pads, which ones were you running?
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:41 PM   #325
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Im using Hawk hp plus pads and they are very loud when driving to work but don't make any noise at all on the Track or the day after a track day. Ill probably get dedicated track pads soon since I can't find a decent compromise.
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