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Old 11-21-2011, 11:05 AM   #401
globalized1221
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ill second all that
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:30 PM   #402
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As a new owner, you reduced my "Want this" list! As I am not entirely interested in the Bling! factor, you saved me a ton of money!
tytyty!!
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:07 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncoiled View Post
Keep price point down? The better optioned models do have better brakes...
I agree. Factory brakes are not very good. I have about 21000 miles on Subaru, I've already had to change brake pads, and rotors (both front ones)
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Old 12-07-2011, 07:55 AM   #404
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And the debate will continue to rage. I for one, am upgrading front caliper to 06/07 red calipers and am still debating the rear H6 or 2 pot conversion. I'm going to do the brake lines and new master cylinder. The fluid will get changed out at that time and I'll probably use blanks for my rotors with HPS pads. My car is a DD, I never track it. I've always hated the feel of the 02/03 WRX brakes - especially since I had an 05 STI. The mushy feel gives me no confidence in the brakes at all. I'm also getting ready to slap new rubber on, tread starting to get lower than I'd like. I'm not trying to stop any faster, I'm just tired of feeling like my POS isn't going to stop without the help of the car in front of me. Nothing wrong with brakes, just replaced pads 6 months ago, turned rotors last year I think, and have brakes checked by my mechanic every 3K miles during my oil change. I read through this post a second time tonight, all 403 posts - and I still want to upgrade to a better OEM unit. Subaru hosed 02/03 owners with regards to the brakes on the USDM models - Asia, Europe and Australia got the standard 4 pot, 2 pot brakes.
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:45 PM   #405
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Thank you for the post but I do believe your teaching ignorant people is futile. I agree with all your points.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:49 AM   #406
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People will always do what they want in the end. There is nothing wrong with attempting to share knowledge. I agree with the OP completely as well, but I'm still upgrading to better oem parts - prefer firmer pedal feel. People are "ignorant" because they don't know any better. Not everyone on this forum is a mechanical genious or even mechanically inclined. The only way people will learn is if people like the OP and various others continue to share their knowledge....
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:13 PM   #407
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Great discussion here. I had some problems Ken with your arguments, but most of those have been addressed. Jack did a great job of addressing the whole "tires stop the car" point.

The problem with the whole discussion of brakes is that "brake performance" is a basket of qualites each rather independent of another. We are throwing around heat manangement, single stop performance, modulation, pedal feel, all different things.

I think on many of those fronts, the current WRX brake system does grade low. Some of it is Subaru philosophy of long low effort pedal, some cheapness in using sliding iron calipers, and for whatever reason they are rather small for the speed capability of the car.

I guess at the end of the day the argument is really about what you think is "enough" for a stock brake system. I think the Subaru is OK, just like davenow says 90%+ of owners are going to to be fine with this. If I can stop from 100-0 at the limit of the tires a couple times in a row, isn't that enough? Just a pad change could improve that. When would I have occasion to need more than that? Subaru makes the STI for those who want more. Subaru seems to follow the Honda style, stock brakes are just big enough for the job to keep weight down. The WRX is rather light for its size and safety.

When I was tracking my WRX I swapped LGT brakes on. They didn't feel any better but they are some massive brakes, with good pads and fluid get the job done on the track.

I have since swapped to 4-pots up front. I swear the ride did improve just from removing ~5lbs unsprung from each wheel. Back to the same rotor as stock. What was important to me was the pedal feel of a fixed caliper. It feels great. With good pads, fluid, and air guides, I can't overheat these on the street.

I'd like to see a fixed caliper on every car out there. Subaru already has them in the parts bin, they fit the current WRX. The rear could work or they could spec a new caliper. No idea why they don't put them on the WRX, makes the car so much nicer to drive. It is a competitive business though, maybe the cost difference is too much, the WRX is a value proposition over the STI.
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:17 PM   #408
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So how much of my desire for improved braking is purely mental- 2010 stock WRX and the brakes often feel slow to bite and a bit sloppy to start slowing the car? Is that going to be mostly perception on my part or are the 2010/9 models known for slightly less aggressive braking feel/performance?
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:18 PM   #409
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You don't have high performance pads, so that will make a big difference. I could name a few other things
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:26 PM   #410
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I have bought my 2011 wrx which comes with the Dunlap summer tires. We live in Rochester NY which can have brutal winters-so rather than go through the hassles of switching from snow tires back to summer tires can someone suggest a tire brand which may serve as a compromise for all seasons?
Thanks,
wsorrells
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:39 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsorrells
I have bought my 2011 wrx which comes with the Dunlap summer tires. We live in Rochester NY which can have brutal winters-so rather than go through the hassles of switching from snow tires back to summer tires can someone suggest a tire brand which may serve as a compromise for all seasons?
Thanks,
wsorrells
Search. Hell, try even looking in the main forum menu. I *think* there might be an entire sub forum dedicated to wheel/tire questions.....
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:31 AM   #412
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OR...tirerack is a vendor on here...just pm them and ask them...
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:39 AM   #413
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steel lines will increase your reaction time when hitting the pedal, thus making you stop just a little bit quicker.

im reading all these "stickies" that i have never paid attention to and they are 50% fact and the rest are biased opinion.
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:25 PM   #414
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Love the post. Some people are soo dumb and blinded. What good is the power if you can't control it and be safe?
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:25 PM   #415
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Great post, very helpful - thanks for sharing your insight!
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:55 PM   #416
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First post I ever read on nasioc.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:54 PM   #417
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Are there any studies, videos, etc done on this? I hate the thought that Brembo is nothing more than a cosmetic company for consumers.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:35 PM   #418
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Funny; all this time and I just read this because I was bored. Thanks for having a well executed thought on this matter. I raced cars or fiberglass shells with 6K HP and you would have s_ _ t a brick if you would have seen the size of rotors and calipers used to start and stop 240 - 300 mph in a quarter mile. These where a quarter the size of factory brakes and if you stood on them to hard you could have flipped the car. Even better my uncle raced several 600,000 HP jets and rockets with the same thing LOL. Depending on the applications most of these are for looks and nothing else. The point is they are not needed for the street unless it is to impress with how much they cost you or you plan on slowing down at 100 - 200 every 5 -10 seconds.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:41 AM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic ChzWhz View Post
Are there any studies, videos, etc done on this? I hate the thought that Brembo is nothing more than a cosmetic company for consumers.
this is not exactly what was said...i guess for a daily driven car that never sees track time, then that would be one way to look at it, but that is definitely not what was said at all.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:15 PM   #420
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I'm with the OP. If you race or run your car hard, fade-resistant braking is important.

95% of car owners don't do these things (intentionally).

I've always replaced whatever my car came with (I never buy new cars) with NAPA ultra premium OEM-replacement rotors and their ceramic pads.

(I'm not trying to sound like a NAPA fanboy, but their ultra-premium rotors have MADE IN USA plastered all over the box, so it's kinda hard to feel bad about spending the extra cash over chinese junk.)

Anyway, I don't consider myself a slow driver and with regular old NAPA brake parts, I've never had an issue with stopping power or fade. It doesn't hurt that I use the transmission to maintain speed downhill, but that's a different topic.

If I raced, I'd want brakes that were more resistant to fade. My old Prizm's solid-disc front rotors got real hot real fast and faded out way too easily when I was hustling it, so I know what that feels like. Had I driven like a sane individual, that would not have been an issue.
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Old 02-08-2012, 06:04 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmount View Post
People will always do what they want in the end. There is nothing wrong with attempting to share knowledge. I agree with the OP completely as well, but I'm still upgrading to better oem parts - prefer firmer pedal feel. People are "ignorant" because they don't know any better. Not everyone on this forum is a mechanical genious or even mechanically inclined. The only way people will learn is if people like the OP and various others continue to share their knowledge....

Agreed!! and great post by the OP
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:15 AM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat_WRX View Post
steel lines will increase your reaction time when hitting the pedal, thus making you stop just a little bit quicker.

im reading all these "stickies" that i have never paid attention to and they are 50% fact and the rest are biased opinion.
Can you explain why steel lines will increase reaction time? It seems like if the fluid is going through the same diameter lines the reaction should be the same (from a physics point of view).

The OP was extremely well written, can't agree more, but I still want to upgrade my brakes. I guess I won't be too sorry when the stock brakes finally wear down. Thanks for the OP.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:06 AM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil03mustang View Post
but their ultra-premium rotors have MADE IN USA plastered all over the box, so it's kinda hard to feel bad about spending the extra cash over chinese junk.)
They might be painted or final machined in the USA to meet a spec (unlikely but possible) - but they are designed and cast NOT in the USA. There are few or no operating foundries in the US or Canada who produce automotive brake rotors. Waupaca - mentioned in the attached article is one but I don't know precisely if they currently do OEM. I think it varies - i.e they provide services as needed when China fails.

NAPA buys rotors from BPI (Brake Parts Inc - Ft McHenry IL)

BPI - just like Centric and many others - imports from all over. Mostly China and Taiwan. Almost always China.

They buy a rotor from the dealer - and mail it to China.

400 foundries look at it - and do what they do. Worst, less worst, and not bad/decent. That is what they make.

THAT IS THE CURRENT BRAKE ROTOR BUSINESS. THERE is NO REGULATION

If you are really interested in Americans losing jobs...

http://www.cawa.org/docs/PRC_Brake_R...r_Request_.pdf



Seriously - do you have a friend you think could actually work in a foundry? That's laughable.



And to the OP.

You are not smart.

Subaru makes heavy fast cars w/ poor brakes - most importantly poor brake pads. Why would I suggest that is my OPINION when it's a plain fact? Are you suggesting that I intend to profit from others ignorance? You better back that up w/ fact. Because I already backed up your lack of knowledge and I DAMN skippy will not sit here while you attack mine.

No - most of you don't need giant brakes. You certainly don't need some made in Taiwan BBK that has a new name on the same old knock off calipers...

But a good set of appropriate pads - and some good maintentance advice - yeah many of you need that. And upgrade advicee basd on your needs - well we do that EACH and EVERY DAY.







-the older and yet somehow just as acidic Ken
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:56 AM   #424
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This post nails it! I argue with my buddies all the time about this and I am glad others share the same view as I do.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:21 AM   #425
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wait what's the point of different brakes on any car then? if a bigger rotor has more leverage against the tire then why wouldn't it stop faster? and what's the point of putting better or worse brakes on any car in production then?

I don't mean to say exactly what you predicted people would get upset about. But I don't understand. (I haven't gotten any brake kit or anything :P)
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