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Old 05-01-2013, 07:33 AM   #526
Gamble_WRX
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You are 100% correct sir. But i think your misinterpreting the point to upgrading brakes. it has nothing to do with the stopping distance and everything to do with heat soak, or "brake fade".

let me use an example. lets take 2 Earlier wrxs, lets say 04s, both stock. one with brembos, one without. now lets take them to the track. push it to the limit for 10 laps, and then "ermergerd" a drunken spectator wandered onto the track!!! panic brake, from 100 mph. WRX brakes fade out, and he swerves to miss the drunk, while the brembos bring the car to a screeching hault with plenty of room for the emergency crew to pull the driver out of his now destroyed WRX, and then he later dies in the hospital because you said "theres no reason to upgrade from factory brakes"

Your thread and information is misleading.

Yes, Factory brakes, and the best upgrade you can buy, will stop the car, in the exact same distance, in the same weather conditions, and the same tires, and starting with cold rotors.

However, the point to a brake upgrade is so you dont experiance the fade you get driving an 02 wrx in the countryside, and repeatedly slowing down from 100mph+ to enter a corner.

If there was no point to upgrading brakes, engineers would have never designed them. the point of larger brakes is to increase friction without locking them up, and to decrease brake fade. Its good information you posted, because its true, but you make it seem like my factory brakes, are just as good as brembos, and they are not. that is fact.

My point, is that tires, and brakes have the same importance to me, and thats why some of us say that you need to build your platform (suspension, chassis bracing, and brakes) as you build your performance, or before.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:12 PM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamble_WRX View Post
You are 100% correct sir. But i think your misinterpreting the point to upgrading brakes. it has nothing to do with the stopping distance and everything to do with heat soak, or "brake fade".

let me use an example. lets take 2 Earlier wrxs, lets say 04s, both stock. one with brembos, one without. now lets take them to the track. push it to the limit for 10 laps, and then "ermergerd" a drunken spectator wandered onto the track!!! panic brake, from 100 mph. WRX brakes fade out, and he swerves to miss the drunk, while the brembos bring the car to a screeching hault with plenty of room for the emergency crew to pull the driver out of his now destroyed WRX, and then he later dies in the hospital because you said "theres no reason to upgrade from factory brakes"

Your thread and information is misleading.

Yes, Factory brakes, and the best upgrade you can buy, will stop the car, in the exact same distance, in the same weather conditions, and the same tires, and starting with cold rotors.

However, the point to a brake upgrade is so you dont experiance the fade you get driving an 02 wrx in the countryside, and repeatedly slowing down from 100mph+ to enter a corner.

If there was no point to upgrading brakes, engineers would have never designed them. the point of larger brakes is to increase friction without locking them up, and to decrease brake fade. Its good information you posted, because its true, but you make it seem like my factory brakes, are just as good as brembos, and they are not. that is fact.

My point, is that tires, and brakes have the same importance to me, and thats why some of us say that you need to build your platform (suspension, chassis bracing, and brakes) as you build your performance, or before.
You are (of course) correct in what you say, but if you read the OP closely, the point is that most people don't make it to the track. I have been canyon carving several times with my stock brakes, and yes there is some fade, but they hold up fine for spirited (non race) situations.

I don't think anyone is saying that upgrading brakes is worthless, just that more power doesn't require better brakes. The brakes will fade at almost the same amount regardless of the power my car can put out. Sure on a trackI might be able to get up to a higher speed before entering a corner with more power and thus need to use my brakes more, but that has more to do with driving capability than shear power.

In short, the post is not misleading for most people on this forum. Thank you for your contribution, but it misses the point of the OP completely.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:07 PM   #528
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With regards to the last 2 posts. I want to take Gamble_WRX's situation of running 10 laps on the track and then trying to essentially threshold brake. If the stock brake car and the big brake car had been running together. Same line, same braking, same everything, it would then depend on the condition of the brakes and more importantly fluid at the time that someone appears on the track. Is the fluid about to boil? If that's the case, then of course, the big brake car has the clear advantage. Have you experienced driving on the track when the fluid boils? I have. Probably a hundred times. (showroom stock allows no brake upgrades). In practice, what the driver will do on the track is start to "nascar" brake. That is....brake early and lighter so that there is not a hard, uncooled brake that can boil the fluid when it's very near boiling point. A few laps of nascar braking can keep the brakes enough under control that you can finish a session or a race.

From a fade point, if the brake compounds are the same, I suppose the stock car could run into a pad fade.....but that's not very common anymore. If the compound is not appropriate for the track, they can literally start falling apart and the stock car, having higher pad temps (smaller pad area, so the temp is higher), would have a disadvantage. But even with a light track pad.....say Hawk HP+.....they aren't going to fall apart and the heat is needed for them to bite in.

Ok....so same situation but both cars have reasonable brake temperature when Joe Drunk jumps onto the track. I contend that both cars will stop just fine. This assumes that neither car boils brake fluid. I also contend that the braking distances will be equal.

For canyon driving (which I am not familiar with) or say driving quickly down Mt. Washington (which I am), there's tremendous heat stress on the brakes and the bigger the brake and the resevoir in the calipers for fluid, the better. Again, you want to avoid boiling brake fluid.

So am I saying that if you could bolt on the stock 04 WRX some pads the size of brembos that the fluid would not be so prone to boiling? Yes, I am saying that. Bigger pad means bigger area generating heat to the rotor from friction. The friction is slowing the car. The total heat is the same. If you put that heat all on a pad the size of a pin head, there's going to be a lot of heat in one spot and thus the temperature of that spot is going to be astronomically high. Spread that out. Put on a really large brake pad and you still generate the same heat (same friction) but the temperature is lower because that heat is spread throughout the pad.

I hope that helps.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:09 AM   #529
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There are a lot of factors in this you could argue! But there are a lot of good points in this thread that most people just dont understand. Its really basic.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:16 PM   #530
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Factory brakes with, for instance, Hawk HP+ pads and motul fluid

This set up should be more than sufficient for autocross, mountain runs, hill climbs
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by greenplates View Post
Factory brakes with, for instance, Hawk HP+ pads and motul fluid

This set up should be more than sufficient for autocross, mountain runs, hill climbs
HP+ suck if they are not hot. On the street, where they start to do anything is as you plow into a crowd of people because you need the entire intersection to heat them up. If you mean HPS, then ok. Or Oem....same thing.
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:16 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by etothen View Post
Ta Da, whiteness the wisdom of Davenow newbie fanbois.
By the way, I have found one place to cook the oem's doing the speed limit, but it is a steep hill, three miles long and just about the twistest road in Oregon and the speed limit is only 35, k, so I may exceed it by 5-7 mph on the 100 foot long "straits"
I may pick up some better pads and fluid, but only because I have moderate track aspirations for it, no intention to get a bbk for all the reasons you have stated.
the initials of this road wouldn't happen to be H.H. road would they? LOL
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:19 AM   #533
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I like to warp my rotors on my stock brake set up.
Appearently they werent meant to slow you from 160 for stop signs.
Would a BBK possibly keep this from happening?
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:46 AM   #534
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There is so much red text in the OP that I feel like a failed a test. I have a BBK on my wrx. It has street and it has race/track only pads. The difference in stopping distance is incomparable. Great post, but only the Sith deal in absolutes. The OP does not take into account factors like- initial bite, piston flex, brake pressure to pedal pressure ratio, off gassing of pads, etc. If you are driving on ice cold rotors (like, after going through a car wash) and need all of your brakes the first time you depress the pedal, you are going for a ride... but that's .001% of driving.

On the same wheels and tires, the initial bite of the race pads are much much greater and the car's stopping distance is decreased by a very large margin. Compared to the stock calipers, I use less pedal force. When I added a BBK I dropped 3 seconds off of my lap times at Thunderhill.

My first hand experience (stock brakes w/ RBF600, Stock with HP+Pads RBF600 and SS Lines, 14" Slotted BBK with race pads and RBF600) says different.

Everything from Bushings to spring rates effect braking distance... braking is nothing without balance... so there's that to consider as well I supposed.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:30 AM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanderkitten View Post
There is so much red text in the OP that I feel like a failed a test. I have a BBK on my wrx. It has street and it has race/track only pads. The difference in stopping distance is incomparable. Great post, but only the Sith deal in absolutes. The OP does not take into account factors like- initial bite, piston flex, brake pressure to pedal pressure ratio, off gassing of pads, etc. If you are driving on ice cold rotors (like, after going through a car wash) and need all of your brakes the first time you depress the pedal, you are going for a ride... but that's .001% of driving.

On the same wheels and tires, the initial bite of the race pads are much much greater and the car's stopping distance is decreased by a very large margin. Compared to the stock calipers, I use less pedal force. When I added a BBK I dropped 3 seconds off of my lap times at Thunderhill.

My first hand experience (stock brakes w/ RBF600, Stock with HP+Pads RBF600 and SS Lines, 14" Slotted BBK with race pads and RBF600) says different.

Everything from Bushings to spring rates effect braking distance... braking is nothing without balance... so there's that to consider as well I supposed.
the sith ruined the saga
well....... them and JarJar
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:46 PM   #536
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Bmx4life
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:47 PM   #537
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My issue isn't with the brakes it's with the ABS system. One tire slips & ABS Fires continually. I had one tire in an oil patch which killed the other 3 brakes! very lame
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:29 PM   #538
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This thread highly irritates me. It is juvenile to think that multi piston calipers, with a bigger braking surface are just for "bling". So I googled factory braking specs (60-0) for both a 2005 wrx and 2005 sti. The wrx-130ft, the sti-114ft. That's 16 FEET difference in a 60-0 stop. Now consider this "noob", because that's who this thread is for, takes his 400whp wrx out with his stock brakes and has to panic brake from let's say 100mph. Now that 16 foot difference is either A- the same or B-multiplied. I'm willing to bet on answer B... With a multi piston caliper you have generally speaking more braking surface (bigger pad) and more leverage (bigger rotor/ offset clamping point).
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:04 PM   #539
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The braking difference between the STI and the WRX has more to do with the difference in tires than the brake pads and calipers. The physics of the argument have been talked about and the braking pad surface and the leverage issue are not big factors in the slowing down equation. Weight and tire/road contact friction have much more to do with the ability to stop once (not dealing with fade) than bigger/better brakes. As has been pointed out (too many times to count), bigger/better brakes have the ability to resist fade for several reasons (read the thread) so they aren't worthless, but for the one time "oh ****" stop, they do nothing more than the stock brakes.

Just did some checking (googled), 05 WRX came with "205/55R16 all season Potenza RE92" tires and the 05 STI came with "225/45R17 Bridgestone Potenza RE070 Summer/Directional" tires. I don't know too much about these specific tires, but I do know that a summer tire will grip the road way better than an all season tire. There is your stoping difference right there.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:49 AM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRCrutc View Post
Just did some checking (googled), 05 WRX came with "205/55R16 all season Potenza RE92" tires and the 05 STI came with "225/45R17 Bridgestone Potenza RE070 Summer/Directional" tires. I don't know too much about these specific tires, but I do know that a summer tire will grip the road way better than an all season tire. There is your stoping difference right there.
Exactly right.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:53 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWDxTY View Post
This thread highly irritates me. It is juvenile to think that multi piston calipers, with a bigger braking surface are just for "bling". So I googled factory braking specs (60-0) for both a 2005 wrx and 2005 sti. The wrx-130ft, the sti-114ft. That's 16 FEET difference in a 60-0 stop. Now consider this "noob", because that's who this thread is for, takes his 400whp wrx out with his stock brakes and has to panic brake from let's say 100mph. Now that 16 foot difference is either A- the same or B-multiplied. I'm willing to bet on answer B... With a multi piston caliper you have generally speaking more braking surface (bigger pad) and more leverage (bigger rotor/ offset clamping point).
Did you read all of the first post? OP gives a hypothetical example with a WRX with race tires and a car with crazy brakes and stock STi tires. I think you didn't bother to read, came up with a very similar example, but came to completely the wrong conclusion/results.

Original post:
Quote:
People like to cite that the STI has a shorter stopping distance with its Brembos. The brembos have nothing to do with it. The RE92s have everything to do with it.

Last edited by yertle; 05-21-2013 at 03:54 PM. Reason: included quote
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:14 PM   #542
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I enjoy the point of this thread, although it is written in a very direct posture, which makes many of you with upgraded brakes cringe.

It's not stating that Brembos won't be 'better' than stock WRX brake (namely the 2/1 pot setup) for racing applications or for 'canyon runs' (aka NOT your spirited dirving adventure on your local backroads). And by the term 'better' let me say that means less brake fade.

It is however stating that your stage 2 WRX will stop in the exact same distance as a stock WRX if both are going 60MPH for example. The stage 2 WRX will just accelerate faster.

It is also stating simply that tires are the best braking upgrade you can do - which is, without a double, true.

Brembos and other big brake packages are great for those into track driving and extreme canyon fun that most of us only dream of [...and bling bling show cars] because they dissipate heat better.

99% of us will only use them for panic stops and daily driving. In these cases, the brake setup is less of a concern as compared to what tires you are using.

Simple thread making a simple point.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:39 PM   #543
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I heard struts or coilovers (brand new) increase your braking distance by 10%, which could be good if you barely hit something and could have had that extra 1ft of distance.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:00 AM   #544
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Many moons ago Pontiac was apparently the last NA car to switch from cable to hydraulically operated brakes. Their motto was "Solid steel from pedal to wheel".
Safety "sold" even in the 1920s.
A mechanic I worked with 40 yr ago used to work on cable brakes 40 yr before that. He said, If the cables were out of adjustment some hairy stuff would happen. Some of those cars could probably do 80 mph.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:24 PM   #545
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I was really worried about my brake upgrade for a long time. At this point, it's barely even an upgrade. I got my car a couple months ago and it already needed brakes then.

I tried to get EBC Yellowstuff for a while (I'm in Canada for the summer, and it's more expensive to get it up here), but I finally went with premium replacement Raybestos pads and rotors. A friend convinced me of the same thing; tires are the biggest upgrade in any situation, even braking. The only thing EBC Yellowstuff would do would help in brake feel a little bit and be good for when I autoX.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:13 PM   #546
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good write up
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #547
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Interesting thread...tires are more important than brakes for stopping quickly. What a concept.

I used to run a stock LGT on the track with all season tires and oem brakes. Other than fade issues which go away, it ran great. When I upgraded to sticky summer tires, I started having more issues with fade. Changing to Hawk HPS helped with the fade and marginally with stopping distance, although, at lap 3, the HPS were still biting where the OEM were nearly useless.

If you hammer OEM brakes enough, they will fade regardless of other system upgrades. The same holds true for highend braking systems. You really want to your high $$$ brakes to work at the track, add a ducting system to bring cool air to the brake disks.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:12 PM   #548
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I've been told i should upgrade my factory rubber lines to braided lines by a bunch of people. How much could it possibly change anything?
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:15 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by InfinityEnds33 View Post
I've been told i should upgrade my factory rubber lines to braided lines by a bunch of people. How much could it possibly change anything?
stock lines are already braided.

no need.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #550
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I've been told i should upgrade my factory rubber lines to braided lines by a bunch of people. How much could it possibly change anything?
This gives the pedal a slightly harder feel. Less give. With braided lines, it's really a crap shoot on whether they're properly teathered to keep them properly routed. If they are not coated with something, get some heat shrink tubing and cover them. Braids alone look perfect when the line inside has been so overheated by rubbing on the inside of the wheel that it bursts. Why do I use that example? Turn 3 at NHIS....the only crash I've ever had in 25 years on the track. The corner worker set the 0-60 time on-foot record for "getting the hell out of here". You should also replace braided lines yearly. That's something always mentioned in the track school.
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