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Old 11-28-2013, 11:59 AM   #576
Jrrogers85
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Default Good post...

I'm new to this mechanic-ing thing but I'm extremely excited about it!! Good posts to read. Thank you!!
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:58 AM   #577
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Very informative post, though im not sure I understand it yet (ive read it 3 times already).

So I know that the tires are what technically stops the car, but if the brakes stop the tires, it would stand to reason that the brakes stop the car (A=B, B=C, A=C). Wouldnt larger breaks help if the car is heavier though? What I dont understand is that you cant just get a car to be an 800hp fire breathing, alcohol drinking monolith without adding more weight. So say my stock 2002 WRX with 200hp weighs 3500lbs (guessing), but if I add more parts to it, it will weigh more and be harder to stop due to inertia. So dont larger brakes actually help a car stop if it weighs more than a stock car with stock brakes?
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:15 AM   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoblikat View Post
Very informative post, though im not sure I understand it yet (ive read it 3 times already).

So I know that the tires are what technically stops the car, but if the brakes stop the tires, it would stand to reason that the brakes stop the car (A=B, B=C, A=C).
If you truly believe this, drive your car off a cliff and stand on the brake pedal. Tires will stop rotating. Does the car stop? (Eventually, it will - but not due to the brakes.)
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:57 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
If you truly believe this, drive your car off a cliff and stand on the brake pedal. Tires will stop rotating. Does the car stop? (Eventually, it will - but not due to the brakes.)
I dont know what to believe, and I probobly never will if everyone is as snarky and rude as you. I made a post asking for more information, stating a theory that I made with the knowledge that I would be corrected, and not belittled. Also, you never even bothered to quote the bottom half of my question, way to go! Keep up the great attitude and im sure more people will share your infinite wisdom soon! After all, the best way to learn is to be told that you should drive your car off a cliff, everyone knows this.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #580
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I dont know what to believe, and I probobly never will if everyone is as snarky and rude as you. I made a post asking for more information, stating a theory that I made with the knowledge that I would be corrected, and not belittled. Also, you never even bothered to quote the bottom half of my question, way to go! Keep up the great attitude and im sure more people will share your infinite wisdom soon! After all, the best way to learn is to be told that you should drive your car off a cliff, everyone knows this.
I wasn't telling you to drive off a cliff. I was trying to clarify a point. Geez, don't be so touchy.

Let me try again for you.

If you cannot lock up your wheels on the road (i.e.: break tire traction) then you need better brakes.
If you can lock up your wheels on the road easily, you need better tires.

Huge brakes and bad tires are akin to driving off a cliff (my attempt to get you to visualize zero contact patch and traction). They will not stop the car, even though the wheels will stop rotating.

Now, take a deep breath, relax, and try to understand the concept.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:25 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
I wasn't telling you to drive off a cliff. I was trying to clarify a point. Geez, don't be so touchy.

Let me try again for you.

If you cannot lock up your wheels on the road (i.e.: break tire traction) then you need better brakes.
If you can lock up your wheels on the road easily, you need better tires.

Huge brakes and bad tires are akin to driving off a cliff (my attempt to get you to visualize zero contact patch and traction). They will not stop the car, even though the wheels will stop rotating.

Now, take a deep breath, relax, and try to understand the concept.
Sorry, just having a bad week.......

OK, I understand that point now. But what about a heavier car? Would a heavier vehicle see improved braking from having a larger brake kit/bigger pads?
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:48 PM   #582
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Sorry, just having a bad week.......

OK, I understand that point now. But what about a heavier car? Would a heavier vehicle see improved braking from having a larger brake kit/bigger pads?
No problem, we all have them.

It's all a matter of balance between the ability of the brakes to stop the wheels, and the ability of the tires to maintain traction.

If you have a car that weighs 2500 lbs equipped with 10" rotors and single pot calipers riding on hard tires 6" wide, you'll probably be able to lock your wheels (skid) under braking easily. Increase vehicle weight by 1000 lbs and throw on some 16" rotors and six pot calipers - with the same tires - and all you'll do is flat spot those tires more easily.

Now, let's take your 2500 lb car, and install a wider set of wheels and tires, with a nice, sticky compound. Same brake setup as original. Now, the car stops on a dime and gives you change. Add your 1000 lbs, and you may find that the tires will continue to stick, but the brakes now begin to overheat and fade. NOW you would want to upgrade the brake setup.

Does that help?
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:04 PM   #583
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Hugely informative post; could have saved a lot of people a lot of money haha.

Question though. My Outback (about as bone-stock as you can get haha) experiences brake fade very quickly during spirited driving, such as canyon roads. Would better pads and rotors make a difference in the amount of brake fade I experience under the same driving conditions?

I know it was mentioned at the beginning of the thread that canyon roads are not a normal driving situation, but I am still curious.

Also of note, I'm currently running probably the worst wheel/tire setup you can get for canyon driving (Goodyear all-season 225/60/R16 on a stock 16x6.5 wheel... because Outback!!), but I plan on fixing this when I modify the rest of the car. I'll probably go to high-performance summer 245/45/R18's on an 18x8.5 wheel (MPSS's and RPF1's on an Outback? I think yes!).
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:14 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by TurboLag23 View Post
Hugely informative post; could have saved a lot of people a lot of money haha.

Question though. My Outback (about as bone-stock as you can get haha) experiences brake fade very quickly during spirited driving, such as canyon roads. Would better pads and rotors make a difference in the amount of brake fade I experience under the same driving conditions?

I know it was mentioned at the beginning of the thread that canyon roads are not a normal driving situation, but I am still curious.

Also of note, I'm currently running probably the worst wheel/tire setup you can get for canyon driving (Goodyear all-season 225/60/R16 on a stock 16x6.5 wheel... because Outback!!), but I plan on fixing this when I modify the rest of the car. I'll probably go to high-performance summer 245/45/R18's on an 18x8.5 wheel (MPSS's and RPF1's on an Outback? I think yes!).
Sticky tires, spirited driving on canyon roads, higher CG of Outback - I predict this will not end well.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:06 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
No problem, we all have them.

It's all a matter of balance between the ability of the brakes to stop the wheels, and the ability of the tires to maintain traction.

If you have a car that weighs 2500 lbs equipped with 10" rotors and single pot calipers riding on hard tires 6" wide, you'll probably be able to lock your wheels (skid) under braking easily. Increase vehicle weight by 1000 lbs and throw on some 16" rotors and six pot calipers - with the same tires - and all you'll do is flat spot those tires more easily.

Now, let's take your 2500 lb car, and install a wider set of wheels and tires, with a nice, sticky compound. Same brake setup as original. Now, the car stops on a dime and gives you change. Add your 1000 lbs, and you may find that the tires will continue to stick, but the brakes now begin to overheat and fade. NOW you would want to upgrade the brake setup.

Does that help?
wow, you hit the nail on the head with that post. I completely understand what youre saying there, bigger brakes will only help if you have the tires to use them.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that to me, I do appreciate it
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:57 PM   #586
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wow, you hit the nail on the head with that post. I completely understand what youre saying there, bigger brakes will only help if you have the tires to use them.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that to me, I do appreciate it

My work here is done.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:10 PM   #587
TurboLag23
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Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
Sticky tires, spirited driving on canyon roads, higher CG of Outback - I predict this will not end well.
To date, it's never ended poorly haha. And up until recently, a significant portion of my daily commute was canyon roads.

And yes, I plan on lowering it and stiffening up the chassis significantly. My long-term plan involves an STI 6-speed/R180, KW coilovers, Whiteline suspension goodies all over the place, stickier tires/bigger wheels, and some brake upgrades. I'm just trying to decide what brake upgrades to do haha.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:12 AM   #588
zander92
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Default decent brakes.

I'm not trying to break the bank but I'm not trying to be too cheap. What are so decent brake upgrades?
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Old 12-15-2013, 10:17 PM   #589
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The first post says it all. Good footprint? With sticky tires/ Yes will stop quicker.
Excellent info!
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:36 AM   #590
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My mind just got worked. Good post!
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:49 AM   #591
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Great post.. Informative and correct! I don't know how I just saw it tonight for the first time. Either way, I'm glad I read it.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:51 PM   #592
TnDeadhead
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Great info to know before you get started with a new hobby. I'm thinking long and hard about this. I definitely wish I had waited to give up my old Subie.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:42 PM   #593
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Thank you for the informative post! Stock brakes for me it is!
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:26 PM   #594
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so when a shop says I need to upgrade to brembos due to me having 600 hp in an 02 wrx then should I listen to them or just stick with my stockies. also what exactly is everyones take on yellow stuff pads.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:55 PM   #595
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braking isn' just ur calipers or pads, its all the car together tires, weight, suspension... dont just focus on ur braking system. combine all the car to run together
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:05 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boarderaustin7 View Post
so when a shop says I need to upgrade to brembos due to me having 600 hp in an 02 wrx then should I listen to them or just stick with my stockies. also what exactly is everyones take on yellow stuff pads.
Judging by your thread here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2600902 Your shop doesn't know what the hell to do.

Tires will do a LOT to stop your car. Brembo's resist brake fade, but even 06/07 4/2 pots will do a fair amount.

OR simply do research and stop giving this shop money that doesn't know crap.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:23 PM   #597
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Default Brembo upgrade

I have an 06 wrx with the 4 pot 2 pot red brakes. I purchased a brembo set up from a 2004 STI calipers, rotors, spindles. Mostly because they look cool.80% of the way into this project I noticed the STI hubs use a larger axle and bearing than the regular WRX ones that I have. Can I just purchase sti axles or am I F'd?
Iam aware of the DBA conversion rotor but have already purchased the STI ones please help.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:53 PM   #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boarderaustin7 View Post
so when a shop says I need to upgrade to brembos due to me having 600 hp in an 02 wrx then should I listen to them or just stick with my stockies. also what exactly is everyones take on yellow stuff pads.
Did you even read the first post?

Quote:
A WRX with @170whp (stock 2.0L typical) traveling at 10, 40, 60, 130mph, will take the exact same force to stop, as a fire breathing alcohol fueled 800whp WRX traveling 10, 40, 60, 130mph.
Horsepower has nothing to do with brakes, and brakes have nothing to do with horsepower. A funny car making 3000 hp that will do 0-300+ mph in 4 seconds doesn't have better brakes than a stock Fiat Panda. It stops using a parachute because trying to stop it via a conventional braking system is ludicrous.

Your supposedly 600hp car will never be going any faster than your stock WRX. It may get there faster, but it won't be at a higher top speed.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:54 PM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve11x View Post
I have an 06 wrx with the 4 pot 2 pot red brakes. I purchased a brembo set up from a 2004 STI calipers, rotors, spindles. Mostly because they look cool.80% of the way into this project I noticed the STI hubs use a larger axle and bearing than the regular WRX ones that I have. Can I just purchase sti axles or am I F'd?
Iam aware of the DBA conversion rotor but have already purchased the STI ones please help.
This is not the right place to post this question. You need to post a new thread and or post in the brakes/suspension/axles forum.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:35 PM   #600
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This Thread was enlightening. a must read.
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