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Old 06-06-2010, 05:55 PM   #76
UBH8NME
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Question: i have an sti. why dont my brakes work in deep snow? Is snow getting between the pad and rotor? Its a scary feeling.

Did a lot of research when my rotors needed replaced. I avoided drilled because i heard about cracking. I went with slotted DBA's and some performance pads. Ive been happy so far.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBH8NME View Post
Question: i have an sti. why dont my brakes work in deep snow? Is snow getting between the pad and rotor? Its a scary feeling.

Did a lot of research when my rotors needed replaced. I avoided drilled because i heard about cracking. I went with slotted DBA's and some performance pads. Ive been happy so far.
Wet + cold rotor = low friction
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:06 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanderkitten View Post

Anyhow, there is no doubt upgrading lines, fluid and pads will result in better braking performance and shorter stopping distances.
Only if you have better tires to support it, It is all about balance, with stickier tires you can take advantage of more agressive pads or vice versa. Once you your tires lock up, your brakes are not doing a damn thing.

Good write up
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:19 AM   #79
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Regarding the wheel lock-up argument in terms of tires and braking performance.

One way to measure the effectiveness of the braking system is with stopping distance.

In terms of the OP, this is a reasonable test for the difference in performance of a stock brake system compared to a modified one because we are talking about a single hard/emergency stop in a normal street driving scenerio.

However, in a real world/hard driving/track driving scenerio, repeatable stopping distance is actually more important than the performance of the braking system in a single hard stop. In other words, it is not only important that the braking system stop the car in "X" feet, but that it can do so consistantly under hard use. This is where a fluid with a higher boing point, better pads, etc. start to come into play.

This is also why I recommend that you pay attention to your braking system as you use it however you drive. If you do start to see signs of the system failing because of heat, etc. you need to modify the brake system to make sure that the braking system will perform consistanly in the conditions that you drive, what ever they are, and however much power your car makes.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:49 AM   #80
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I just saw this and was wondering why it is a sticky. The op is misleading to newbs except for the small caveat about leaving fade out of the picture when in fact we all know that fade is very much in the picture when someone decides to turn up the boost. An owner who upgrades will also upgrade his driving habits whether it is on the street or track, so he will experience fade now when he didn't before with his wimpy ride.

Skimming through the pages shows that we all don't agree with the op 100%.
Can this be unstuck or the op re-written to incorp al the comments?
I certainly don't want my son reading the op and start arguing with my vast knowledge and wisdom I have brainwashed him on this subject - lol.
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:37 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dads_cruizzzer View Post
I just saw this and was wondering why it is a sticky. The op is misleading to newbs except for the small caveat about leaving fade out of the picture when in fact we all know that fade is very much in the picture when someone decides to turn up the boost. An owner who upgrades will also upgrade his driving habits whether it is on the street or track, so he will experience fade now when he didn't before with his wimpy ride.
Not so sure that's true. The stock brakes are plenty good enough for street use at 400+ hp as long as you're driving at legal speeds and not like a complete idiot. Just because you have more power doesn't mean that you should be working your brakes any harder in street use. The only time you should ever possibly get fade on the street is if you're driving down a mountain and constantly using your brakes instead of downshifting.

If you're driving like an idiot, tailgating everyone and constantly having to brake hard to avoid rear-ending everyone, then it's your driving that's the problem, not your brakes.

That said, there are a few modifications that just make the braking system feel better on the street for normal braking -- the H6 rear brake upgrade, slightly more aggressive pads like Carbotech Bobcats or Hawk HP or something of that nature, possibly stainless brake lines or a master cylinder brace. They probably don't make much of a difference in measured stopping distance, but do inspire a bit more confidence with a brake pedal that doesn't feel like a sponge.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:56 AM   #82
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^^^I'm definately not condoning a$$hat driving habits, but simply stating that is what most likely will happen. There will be urges from time to time to drive like a bat out of hell - that's another thread.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but what I like most about my brake upgrade is that I have to use less effort on the pedal. No drama, no "oh-$hit" feel especially on the track. That alone is a great benefit of the brake upgrade to me.

I like the front bias as well, although I have not tried the H6 upgrade. I like the front bias because, on track, I tend to brake deep and some feather/trail braking while in the turn. I will try more agressive pads before the H6 upgrade and see how that changes my style.

So, who is all for getting this unstuck or re-written? Stickies "should be" a one post fully factual, self supporting information. Trailing posts should mostly agree with the op. This thread does not.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:43 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBH8NME View Post
Question: i have an sti. why dont my brakes work in deep snow? Is snow getting between the pad and rotor? Its a scary feeling.

Did a lot of research when my rotors needed replaced. I avoided drilled because i heard about cracking. I went with slotted DBA's and some performance pads. Ive been happy so far.
First of all, what's deep snow? If it's not over the bumper, it's not deep yet.

Second, how fast could you possibly be going in this deep snow that you're having problems stopping? AWD isn't carte blanche to drive in any conditions, it frequently only means it's a longer walk out of the woods.

Third (I think this was covered, I'm not sure) what tires are you using? If you're not using snow tires (like Blizzaks or something studded) you shouldn't expect very good stopping performance. If your tires aren't gripping, you're not stopping and 'all-season' tires aren't meant to grip in deep snow. If your wheels spin when you take off in deep snow, good luck stopping in a hurry.

Of course we only get around 200"/ year (it's more at elevation, but I live below 500')
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:00 PM   #84
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I like this thread. It is very true. Street cars who upgrade to Brembos (or even StopTechs) are only benefitting from the appearance. The only thing misleading in the original post is the comment about rally cars. On gravel and dirt, I am sure the small brakes are desirable since the surface is so loose. But, correct me if I am wrong, last time I checked WRC cars use huge 6-pot calipers for tarmac.

Anyway, here is a pic of why I did upgrade my WRX front brakes to Brembos after a track event at Watkins Glen on a hot August weekend.

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Old 06-09-2010, 05:16 PM   #85
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Excellent post. Very worthwhile information that will save a lot of people a few bucks
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:23 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
Not so sure that's true. The stock brakes are plenty good enough for street use at 400+ hp as long as you're driving at legal speeds and not like a complete idiot. Just because you have more power doesn't mean that you should be working your brakes any harder in street use. The only time you should ever possibly get fade on the street is if you're driving down a mountain and constantly using your brakes instead of downshifting.

If you're driving like an idiot, tailgating everyone and constantly having to brake hard to avoid rear-ending everyone, then it's your driving that's the problem, not your brakes.

That said, there are a few modifications that just make the braking system feel better on the street for normal braking -- the H6 rear brake upgrade, slightly more aggressive pads like Carbotech Bobcats or Hawk HP or something of that nature, possibly stainless brake lines or a master cylinder brace. They probably don't make much of a difference in measured stopping distance, but do inspire a bit more confidence with a brake pedal that doesn't feel like a sponge.
I believe the point he is trying to make, as i have been trying to make this entire time as well, is that this pertains to a SINGLE BRAKING INSTANCE.
Any thing past that, and there are MANY advantages to upgrading your brakes. With the amount of people saying, "oh yeah, that will save me money", and "wow, now i wont need to upgrade my brakes!" it could lead to some problems for people.
These people who read the newbies forums and faq are here for quality information as a basis to learn about their cars. When a very, very important topic like brake fade is left out of a conversation like this, how can the new/uninformed learn about this?
While the OP was a good solid, post, i have to push for this to get unstickied as well.
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:00 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0ber_p View Post
I believe the point he is trying to make, as i have been trying to make this entire time as well, is that this pertains to a SINGLE BRAKING INSTANCE.
Any thing past that, and there are MANY advantages to upgrading your brakes. With the amount of people saying, "oh yeah, that will save me money", and "wow, now i wont need to upgrade my brakes!" it could lead to some problems for people.
These people who read the newbies forums and faq are here for quality information as a basis to learn about their cars. When a very, very important topic like brake fade is left out of a conversation like this, how can the new/uninformed learn about this?
While the OP was a good solid, post, i have to push for this to get unstickied as well.
Agreed, there needs to be a few changes made to the OP for it to be a sticky. Maybe a list of reasons to upgrade brakes based on needs etc. Also a note about how if you need repeated stops, the stock brakes will fade while upgraded brakes will stay consistent.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:50 PM   #88
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Can anyone recommend any good blank rotors besides oem/brembo? I had oem rotors for 30k/oem pads, and started getting shakes in the steering wheel. Now have autozone blanks with about 5k miles w/stoptech pads, and same thing, steering wheels vibrates/shakes when I brake. I'm not looking for slotted/drilled, just looking for good blank rotor.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:14 AM   #89
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Centrics are what I've heard are good. Also make sure you bed properly.

Good blanks are on my list for my next replacement. PM WRXBrakes on here as a source. Ken is good people...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...9#post30979109
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:25 PM   #90
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Default Factors of braking

Adding to OP before mentioned mechanical (e.g fade) and external factors (e.g. friction) of stopping a car:
Braking capability which depends on factors such as;
  • the type of braking system,
  • brake pad material,
  • brake alignment,
  • tire pressures,
  • tire tread and grip,
  • vehicle weight,
  • suspension system,
  • the co-efficient of friction of the road surface,
  • wind speed,
  • slope of road,
  • surface smoothness
  • the braking technique applied by the driver.
To truly discuss braking one must consider the following:
  • Human Perception Time
  • Human Reaction Time
  • Vehicle Reaction Time
  • Vehicle Braking Capability
The human perception time; is how long the driver takes to see the hazard, and the brain realize it is a hazard requiring an immediate reaction. This perception time can be as long as to a second. Add to this human reaction time vary from - of a second. There two components of stopping distance are human factors and as such can be effected by tiredness, alcohol, fatigue and concentration levels. A perception and reaction time of 3 or 4 seconds is possible. A driver perhaps 1 second late in applying the brakes @ 60 mph the car would require about 100 feet further to stop.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:41 PM   #91
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i think thats a whole different discussion in itself....
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:53 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexman2002 View Post
Can anyone recommend any good blank rotors besides oem/brembo? I had oem rotors for 30k/oem pads, and started getting shakes in the steering wheel. Now have autozone blanks with about 5k miles w/stoptech pads, and same thing, steering wheels vibrates/shakes when I brake. I'm not looking for slotted/drilled, just looking for good blank rotor.
Did you bed your brakes in? The problem might not be the rotor. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinstock.shtml
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:36 PM   #93
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Default Fit for purpose

All goes back to what do you intend to do with your car.
Racing requires racing parts to hold up, the street is different.
If looks are driving a purchase that's fine too, just know what you are actually accomplishing.
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:19 PM   #94
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I LOVE this post. People have been calling me dumb for years for saying what you just did. I track my integra, and I only upgraded pads (stock ls power for learning), and it does perfectly fine
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:27 AM   #95
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Awesome. Ive been trying to tell people this for YEARS!
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:01 PM   #96
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I got some questions about brakes guys any help would be great. I just got my first 02 wrx and it needed brakes it shook bad at higher spped coming to a stop well my dumb ass just put pads on thinking it was the pads still did it so i got some new rotors and left the same pads on that i tired first, and it doesnt shake as bad but still does past 40mphs then applying the brakes any ideas? do i need new pads again? thanks any help would be great! ps they are stock pads and rotors
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:09 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dads_cruizzzer View Post
So, who is all for getting this unstuck or re-written? Stickies "should be" a one post fully factual, self supporting information. Trailing posts should mostly agree with the op. This thread does not.
I agree.



OP is a valid point just not worded properly and some valid points are left out.

If you buy a WRX, tires should be the first mod you do(if you're geared towards autox/track). But tires alone can't make your brakes up to par with the STI brembos. The WRX brakes can get very soft when heated which can be very unsafe for a stock or stage 2 car, but 400whp is crazy.

I just think there needs to be a few things added, the 4 pages of posts contain a lot of valid OP should include.

Now.. if someone builds a 400whp car but never beats on it and drives it as a DD.. then yeah stock breaks will do fine. But if I had 400whp I don't think I'd have that much self-sontrol.
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:20 PM   #98
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@ Original post: You're right on the money. Not only that, but hp and acceleration have little to do with braking.

Braking from 60mph is the same no matter if you took 3 seconds or 30 seconds to get there. It's just physics.

I think it's the presumption people have that if you get more hp, you're automatically going to drive at a higher speed every where you go.

Doesn't matter if you got 100hp or 900hp, it's 65mph for everyone. On the track, that's a different story.
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Old 06-13-2010, 12:30 AM   #99
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I like Dave's post, and think this whole discussion is a good read. But his sentence about having a 400 WHP car and not needing to upgrade the brakes is a bit misleading. He goes on to say if you're driving 10, 20, 40, or 60 MPH it's going to take the same time/distance to stop your car. That's absolutely correct, but the reason people upgrade cars to make 400 WHP is not so they can go the same speed as they went in their stock car. It will DEFINITELY take bigger brakes, better tires etc. to decelerate from 150 MPH than it does with your stock car at 60 MPH.

A lot of other people have mentioned brake fade, which is a condition that you will rarely experience on the street unless you do a lot of canyon carving. However, if you do ANY track time, it's a VERY real concern that needs to be addressed. Stock brakes aren't designed to dissipate the heat generated on the race track, period. On my local track, decelerating from over 135 at the end of the main straight to go through turn 2 at 80 MPH, then accelerating up to 110 going down hill into turns 3A and 3B at 40 MPH over and over again for a half hour at a time will most definitely cause stock brakes to fade if not outright fail. So if you have a stock car that might only be able to get up to 100 MPH on the main straight it's not nearly as hard on the braking system to decelerate to 80 to go through turn 2, and if you only get up to 60 or 70 going down the hill into 3A and 3B you may be able to do that all day without your brakes fading.

Just sayin' having a lot more than stock HP can certainly mean you should upgrade your brakes if you aren't driving the speed limit...

Rocket's two cents

Last edited by STirocket; 06-13-2010 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:27 AM   #100
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To Dave's original point, though, I'd bet pretty good money that less than 10% of the people who significantly upgrade the power on their WRXs and STis actually track the cars. If all you're doing is daily driving your car, then brake upgrades are an appearance mod, for the most part, and aren't really necessary.

Yeah, they're absolutely necessary for doing HPDEs or actual racing. But I still think that the real racers are definitely in the minority here, and that the majority are more wanna-be's than actual racers.
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